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Yet another question about rye
We are working on recipes and a local supplier of Rye has great rye, but it isn’t malted. What will be the main difference between malted Rye and unmalted rye? Newbie question i know, but it’s the first time working with Rye.
Thanks
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24 Replies
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I’m sure there’s a difference between malted and unmalted rye in flavor profile — I’ve read unmalted rye is a bit more peppery, but I haven’t experimented enough to myself to know this for sure.
Most folks work with unmalted rye. Thus the addition of malted barley for it’s diastatic power (built in enzymes) to convert the starch in the rye, or by means of adding liquid enzymes to do the same thing.
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There is not a big difference flavor wise. And good unmalted rye will convert on its own, no added enzymes needed.
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There is not a big difference flavor wise. And good unmalted rye will convert on its own, no added enzymes needed.
My distillery is almost 100% rye. I have heard that unmalted rye will self convert to a small degree, but doubt the yield would be very efficient.
Strike water plus grist, 3 hours later and my mash is still very solid. Add malted grain and the mash turns to a thin “soup” in a minute or so. That indicates to me that very few starch chains have been shortened to sugars before the malted grain is added.
If anyone has information that rye has a very high degree of self conversion I would be interested in giving it a go, but without more information I don’t want to risk a whole batch.
Pete
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We find a difference in flavor profile between rye and malt rye, at least in the mash, ferment, and new make. Rye tastes “greener”, spicier. Very subjective. Whether that carries over into the aged product? Rye whiskey is made from rye and augments. Malt rye whiskey is a different category, seldom made any more. Most available brand is Old Portero series from Anchor Distilling.
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Malted Rye will have been kilned (dried with hot air), so you’ll have a little (little) bit of maillard reactions—-essentially, toasting—- in the malted rye. The flavor of malted rye will be a little more pronounced.
Malted Rye will also have enzymes and a lower water content.
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Interesting! I appreciate all your insights!
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Coming from the beer side of the world, I would think you are asking for a huge brick of rye mud.
I would use at least 30% 6 row malted barley just to make sure you can get a good conversion.
On a side note, Briess malting is now making a malted rye syrup in totes.
Great way to get the rye without having to use rye.
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Also want to put out the difference between rye suppliers. A local farmer growing rye is probably growing a feed grade seed, unless you specifically ask him to grow something else. I’ve heard that European rye has more and better flavors, as it is used more in human diets. Haven’t gotten to this point in comparing yet.
Todd
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My distillery is almost 100% rye. I have heard that unmalted rye will self convert to a small degree, but doubt the yield would be very efficient.
Strike water plus grist, 3 hours later and my mash is still very solid. Add malted grain and the mash turns to a thin “soup” in a minute or so. That indicates to me that very few starch chains have been shortened to sugars before the malted grain is added.
If anyone has information that rye has a very high degree of self conversion I would be interested in giving it a go, but without more information I don’t want to risk a whole batch.
I have done complete unmalted rye mashes that did as good as it would have if malt had been added. Figured it out by accident, had bin trouble and could not add my malt with my rye going to the cooker. The mash cooker was at temp to mash, by the time I got ready to add my malt, I happened to taste it. Sweet. Checked brix, sugar was there. I just added more rye to it instead of malt. Yielded just as good and has a very district heavy rye flavor.
Pete
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Definitely a flavor difference. Of course the obvious, go-to answer would be??? Experiment!! We have found a mix of malted and unmalted for the right flavor, and conversion. After an hour rest we find (through an iodine test) the majority of the mash converted. We use enzymes just to be sure.
Local is always a good idea, but make sure its quality stuff.
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I have done complete unmalted rye mashes that did as good as it would have if malt had been added. Figured it out by accident, had bin trouble and could not add my malt with my rye going to the cooker. The mash cooker was at temp to mash, by the time I got ready to add my malt, I happened to taste it. Sweet. Checked brix, sugar was there. I just added more rye to it instead of malt. Yielded just as good and has a very district heavy rye flavor.
From my observation I find it hard to believe that that was unmalted rye. You may have purchased it as unmalted but it could have self malted in the field.
I have been growing and harvesting rye for over 40 years. Very occasionally there can be a week or so of wet weather, after the rye has matured, and the grains will start to sprout while still in the head of the plant. Once saw the grains sprouted so far that the heads had inch long green shoots all over them.
If the grain starts to sprout then dries out again it can still be harvested as feed grain, but is no good for malting because it has already malted itself.
I suspect you stumbled across some self malted grain.
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I watched this rye as it was grown for us. It was raw rye. I have several books that reference it as well. I have a hunch that this was how PA pure rye was made originally.
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I watched this rye as it was grown for us. It was raw rye. I have several books that reference it as well. I have a hunch that this was how PA pure rye was made originally.
Could you please tell me your mashing technique, temperature profile, times etc. The way I am doing it there is very little if any self conversion. Maybe I am doing it incorrectly. Maybe my variety of rye doesn’t self convert.
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If I do a mash like that, I just bring water up to 120 f and hold it while adding rye. I use a beta glucanase. Add it, get you rye in hold it about fifteen mins, the slowly bring temp up to 145. Hold about fifteen mins, drop to fermentation temp and ferment. I shoot for 12 brix on a beer still, 15 on a pot. The warmer you ferment, the spicier the profile.
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If I do a mash like that, I just bring water up to 120 f and hold it while adding rye. I use a beta glucanase. Add it, get you rye in hold it about fifteen mins, the slowly bring temp up to 145. Hold about fifteen mins, drop to fermentation temp and ferment. I shoot for 12 brix on a beer still, 15 on a pot. The warmer you ferment, the spicier the profile.
I will give that profile a go, it is quite different from what I normally do. I have only recently installed steam to be able to step temperatures up. You have used Beta glucanase so your rye is not completely self modifying.I came across the following quote while reading about rye bread baking —–McGee points out another misfortune of rye grain, “Rye has another major breadmaking liability, it tends to begin sprouting before harvest so its starch digesting enzymes are active during baking and break down the other major source of dough structure.”
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I worked at two industrial enzyme producers for 6 years. Basically all (BG, etc) enzyme products are non-purified microbial enzyme broths. While some of them have have very high levels of specific enzymes (either by classic strain selection or genetic engineering), the strains will also express other enzymes. Two common host stains are A. niger and A. oryzae; both of those produce quite a bit of amylase.
Try that unmalted rye mash without adding BG and there will be a very different result.
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Yeah, what Delta H said. Most industrial enzymes are not all that purified, they (we?) test for the activity that they want to sell that enzyme powder as, package it up and go. That means that most industrial enzymes have significant (though not usually mentioned) side activities, especially when they are grown in a Koji fermentation as compared to deep tank fermentation. Then those side activities can vary from batch to batch, since the only thing that is being measured for consistency is the stated activity… Its an interesting world of enzymes…
Back to the Original Post – The big difference is what has been mentioned before. Malted rye has enzyme content for conversion of starches to sugars (kind of a big deal), unmalted (arguably i guess?) does not, and would require supplementation. Arguably the flavor profile of malted any grain will be different than unmalted of that exact same grain. I tend to agree that malted grain is different, it just makes sense to me that what happens in the malting process causes changes that cannot be duplicated, and will contribute some different flavors as a result. I mean when I think about it; malting is a week long(or longer) process that changes the chemical and physical structure of the grain, it gets infected with tons of microfloura, and then it is dried to prevent further change… Anyways, malt is awesome, but also expensive, so yeah…
Rye does have some serious viscosity issues though, so be ready for that good “fun” right there.
Delta H, we should chat sometime.
Cheers!
SpecZyme
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I personally have very little experience with rye – basically all of it has been adjunct brewing (for beer), and as less than 25% of the grain bill. I have only used malted rye in those cases. One would expect that malted rye has the correct enzymes (if not the correct level of them) to break down all of the polysaccharide in rye. Maybe the endoglucanases in the rye don’t survive the malting process, or perhaps they are low Tm enzymes…
Just out of curiosity has anyone mashed similar levels of malted and unmalted rye that has a comparison on viscosity (or lautering speed)?
Hey SpecZyme – I’ve just left the enzyme (R&D) business recently, and we should definitely chat.
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Wait, so the brewer’s extracts (LME) have aspergillus Orzaye in them? thats craziness..
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Wait, so the brewer’s extracts (LME) have aspergillus Orzaye in them? thats craziness..
If you buy a carton of milk it does not have a cow in it, A. oryzae is the “cow”
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I’m not following ya. Are you saying that LME has the enzymes from A.O. in addition to that of barley?
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Some Malt Extract is actually just lautered malt mash that is boiled down. Alternatively, some mashes for these are malt+enzymes (which is still technically malt extract), and some are barley plus enzymes (which is usually called “brewers extract” or something without the word “malt”).
Malt extract is an odd thing. If it is boiled down to concentrate there will be a lot of unfermentable sugars/oligosaccharides (good or bad in a beer, but bad in a spirit wash) an some loss of malt flavor (with possible gain of toasty flavor from the boil). If it is vacuum concentrated it should be more fermentable but might have significant flavor loss.
Also, as an important note, yeast grown up on a diet of glucose don’t do well in fermentation of a high-maltose mash. That means that if one uses a malt extract that had AG enzyme added (all malto-oligos to glucose) to grow up a yeast culture to pitch, then one must at AG to the wash. Conversely, if you want to use malt enzyme only mashing, then you need to grow that yeast up on a starter that didn’t have AG in it (you need maltose around of the yeast won’t express the transport/metabolism system for it – glucose is the “preferred” carbon source for yeast and most things). Basic point, if you make starter cultures (and you should, it is easy, just need a stirplate and a day), you should make the wash for the starter the same as what you are fermenting rather than risk issues with LME.
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Ah, now I get it. Thanks fellas! Also, good advice on making starters – will definitely be looking into that.
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What about labelling?
Does Whiskey made with (>51%) malted Rye qualify as Rye Whiskey and Malted Rye Whiskey?
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