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The Taste of My Irish Whiskey is Not What I Expected
I visited a whiskey distillery last week and left with a heavy heart having tasted the new make off the still. It tasted very distinctly of whiskey! Mine doesn’t although I do everything I can think of to mimic the proper distillery process. HDP barley from a good source, proper whiskey yeast, keg still with copper pipes in the column, careful cuts using small jars etc etc.I had hoped that my new make was OK and that there was something wrong with my oak or oaking method (dominos in Kilner jars) but I had to accept that if it doesn’t taste like whiskey going into the oak it’s not going to taste like whiskey coming out. The resulting spirit is not unpleasant and is drinkable but it’s just not whiskey like shop bought. I know that this is more of a rant than a question as it’s impossible to determine what I’m doing wrong from a brief post but if you know the secret to getting a barley mash to distill out tasting of whiskey please tell me!
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29 Replies
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I’d start with the ingredients if you want to emulate something. Use the same or similar malt/yeast/mash and ferment protocol. That might take some research. Perhaps the distillery would share some specifics with you?Distillation protocol – Do they use a Strip/Spirit run protocol? Plated still? What are you doing? How about recycling of backset or feints? How does that process compare to your/their protocol? Cuts – Were you able to ask about their cut points and how they decide? What happens to the new make when you cut wider or more narrow? If recycling feints, where/how are the feints cuts made and decided?I don’t have the specific answers and it may take some research accompanied by lots of practice.. Not a bad situation at all if your new make is good as-is..I’d recommend to get cracking on researchin’ , readin’, and runnin’ ..Cheers,jonny————i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred————
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Hello Jonny – OP Here. thanks for your input. Unfortunately it was a tourist group visit and there wasn’t a distiller on hand to speak to. They had the large copper low wines and spirit pot stills. My still column is one of those Chinese glass ones from Ali Express. I’ve removed the plates and put some copper plumbing pipes inside it to try to emulate the copper pot stills.Would adding a copper onion at the top help I wonder? It’d bring me a little closer to the commercial setup. As you recommend – I’ll keep on researchin’ , readin’, and runnin’ And prayin – but I’m not a praying man.
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I am new to all-grain and recently was not happy with my all barley whiskey.Did you distill on the grain? or with a lot of yeast in the wash, meaning not clear?
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I strongly believe that a very large part of the flavour the big whiskey distilleries produce, is from perpetually recycled feints.Make Booze, not War!
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Hello Born_FreeI fermented and distilled off the grain. As for the yeast – I gently poured the wash into the keg leaving as much of the settled yeast behind as possible. I did a stripping run and then a spirit run.
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Hello MooseMan. I add the feints from the last spirit run to the next spirit run
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What whiskey are you comparing to?What’s your grain bill?How are you running your still to get the flavours you’re after?If you are chasing Irish potstilled whiskey, prepare to spend a lot of time mashing and stripping.Don’t be a dick
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Hello Swedish PrideWhat whiskey are you comparing to? Typical Irish middle of the road whiskies like Paddy, Jamison, Bushmills – I’m just not getting that taste that says “now that’s whiskey” I’d be happy with supermarket own brand whiskey which is all produced by the big distillers anyway. How are you running your still to get the flavours you’re after? Not sure what you mean do you mean how fast? I’ve got dual elements – I run both to get up to temperature then switch one off for the run. I try not to run the spirit run too fast. I did have various temperature controllers but all eventually failed so I just go with the dual elements now which I think works well enough. I might go back to temperature controllers just to change something in the process.prepare to spend a lot of time mashing and stripping Yes I think that I’ll experiment with doing a third run
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I’ve mashed over 500 pounds of grain and I still only have six of the 14 gallons I need to do a spirit run for true triple distilled Irish whiskey. “Not too fast” isn’t a lot of information. Not sure what temperature controllers are, but you can’t control the temperature of your boil if that’s what they are supposed to do.I believe Jameson is ran through a plater. My attempt at it I stripped then ran through two plates. Although it’s only a couple months old I’m extremely happy with the result so far.One thing that greatly improved my Irish whiskey was wearing a ski mask while listening to “My Little Armalite” while running it.
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Hello fiery creationsA couple of things to think about here. I need to go back to controlling the temperature of the still. I have plates for my still so I might put two back in and see how that goes. However I think I’ll pass on the balaclava suggestion!
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Hello fiery creationsA couple of things to think about here. I need to go back to controlling the temperature of the still. I have plates for my still so I might put two back in and see how that goes. However I think I’ll pass on the balaclava suggestion!How are you controlling the temp of your still?
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What? Where did all your alcohol go? Just some quick math in my head but that 500 lb would give me 12 gallons or more at barrel strength, after cuts.Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/DimrothLearning to Toast: Toasting WoodPolishing Spirits with Fruitwood: FruitwoodBadmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels
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What? Where did all your alcohol go? Just some quick math in my head but that 500 lb would give me 12 gallons or more at barrel strength, after cuts.Doing the triple distilled Middleton process? Laid this out in another thread. But I’m typically getting 5ish% to start withStrip. Then do the second spirit run collecting hearts move onto the third and finals spirit run. I have way more faints, but 6 gallons of hearts to move on to the 3rd.I also lost some to scorching in the beginning.
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What? Where did all your alcohol go? Just some quick math in my head but that 500 lb would give me 12 gallons or more at barrel strength, after cuts.Doing the triple distilled Middleton process? Laid this out in another thread. But I’m typically getting 5ish% to start withStrip. Then do the second spirit run collecting hearts move onto the third and finals spirit run. I have way more faints, but 6 gallons of hearts to move on to the 3rd.I also lost some to scorching in the beginning.Thanks. I go read about that process. The scorching sucks. I’ve lost a few batches with rye in them due to the scorch, so I started using my thumper as a steam stripping rig.Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/DimrothLearning to Toast: Toasting WoodPolishing Spirits with Fruitwood: FruitwoodBadmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels
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What? Where did all your alcohol go? Just some quick math in my head but that 500 lb would give me 12 gallons or more at barrel strength, after cuts.Doing the triple distilled Middleton process? Laid this out in another thread. But I’m typically getting 5ish% to start withStrip. Then do the second spirit run collecting hearts move onto the third and finals spirit run. I have way more faints, but 6 gallons of hearts to move on to the 3rd.I also lost some to scorching in the beginning.Thanks. I go read about that process. The scorching sucks. I’ve lost a few batches with rye in them due to the scorch, so I started using my thumper as a steam stripping rig.Went down the same path. Today I’m putting the final welds to complete my steam generator. No more sparging or squeezing. No more scorch
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Even with the steam stripper, I still squeeze my grains then let it settle before siphoning off the clear beer for stripping. Being in the city, it’s easier to get rid of the dry grains than it is to get rid of slop.Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/DimrothLearning to Toast: Toasting WoodPolishing Spirits with Fruitwood: FruitwoodBadmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels
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I swear I posted a reply on this, but don’t see it:I’ve made several batches of Irish style whiskey & been very happy with the outcomes. What type of barley are you using? From the mountain of reading I’ve done here on HD, I know that US barley is bred for diastatic power vs actual flavor. Somewhere in my researching journey Golden Promise was mentioned as having really good flavor, so my go-to recipe is:40% Golden Promise40% flaked barley (unmalted)10% corn meal (for some sweetness)10% toasted oats (for some mouthfeel; this was inspired by SCD’s CROW recipe)I ferment on-grain with YLAY, age on oak spiralsI’ve double distilled this recipe and also used single/double thumper set up. Comes out with a pleasant cookie/shortbread background flavor. Even the sugarheads on the spent grain came out tasty!Hope this helps!There are two times of year: FOOTBALL SEASON and… Waiting For Football Season
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Unless there’s some kind of mis-translation here, I think you might need to go back and learn more about how stills operate. Before you can achieve a specific desired result, it would help if you understood that at the most basic fundamental physical level, the temperature of your still will be determined solely by the boiling point of the liquid inside, which is related almost exclusively to the ratio of alcohol to water. The only other significant factor is the ambient pressure, but that’s pretty much impossible to change without a lot of specialized equipment and knowledge. There is no electronic circuitry, no system that can possibly change that fact.My advice is to go back and REALLY learn the basics first. Only then can you reliably understand and implement any process you’re trying to replicate.Learn from the past, live in the present, change the future.
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For me, this is a really good description of the Midleton process at Difford’s Guide. This graphic really helps me as well:
The feints run produces foreshots, strong feints (68-72%), and weak feints. Foreshots (which seem to include most or all heads) and weak feints go back into the next feints still run, strong feints go to the spirit still run.The spirit runs produces foreshots, spirit (83-85%), strong feints, and weak feints. Foreshots and strong feints go back into the next spirit run, weak feints go into the next feints still run, and spirit goes into barrels. Here I’m still a bit confused … Difford refers to making a foreshots cut directly to hearts on the spirit run, so either all heads are removed in the feints run, or heads are included in foreshots.EVERYTHING is recycled to either the next feints run or the next spirit run. So by this process, the first feints still run would only be low wines, and the spirit run would not have any recycled foreshots or strong feints, so I would expect it to lack flavor. All of that recycling must be producing the flavor you are looking for.HigginsFlute buildSteamer build4 methods experimentAging proof experimentNext batch: Malt Whiskey (60 barley/30 corn/10 wheat)
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They have some different terminology. I’ve been reading it as fores being interchangeable with heads. Can’t remember where I saw or read it but the strong and weak feints have an ABV range for each of I’m not mistaken. So on the third run the higher proof spirit like you mentioned is where the strong feints would have been on the previous run. At least that’s how I’ve been doing it. A little worried my final spirit run will be low on flavor since it would take an enormous amount to even get that second go of the final spirit run including rececyled feints. In this process the building of feints is the most expensive part. afterwards, I imagine it will be a lot more straightforward, cheaper, and easier. I picked one hell of a process to start off with… but at least everything else seems super easy after this
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You don’t say how you went about selecting the keeper in any of your distillations, so I suspect that is where you will find your answers: Flavors lost in foreshots, heads, tails and backset.If you don’t strip deep enough on the first two distillations, you can throw out needed flavors with both lots of backset.If you are deciding what to keep based on tasting individual jars, you can fall into the trap of sending valuable flavors to the heads and tails collections.
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You’ve listed off a bunch of blended Irish Whiskeys that are made with a combination of grains, malt, column and pot stills, yet you’ve only mentioned malted barley.
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If you’re from tipp you got access to all the best malted barley from Waterford, Wexford and Cork.Prob a good few farm shops down your way as well if you want to do some unmalted grain in your bill.If you want your booze to smell like commercial as you run it do a single malt run and strip down to nothing.I was just doing a stripping run tin the shed there now and was down to 10% off the spout and collected an additional 5l after that, it get added in to the next strip run.Don’t add your be faints to the next spirit run, add it to the next strip…To replicate Jameson and Paddy’s run your plater, about 60%malt 20% unmalted barely 10%each of maize and oats should get you ballpark to their bills.I can’t handle Jameson’s these days , just tastes like heads, maybe be more careful with the heads cut if you still prefer Jameson to your own make.Don’t be a dick
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Thanks rubberduck71I’ll try altering my recipe along those lines. I have used unmalted barley and porridge oats before but I fear that there is a fundamental problem with my process more so than my recipies.So far I’ve gleaned ideas for recipe, plates, energy input control – plenty to keep me experimenting until I hit the sweet spot.
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Hello again Swedish PrideI am indeed in Tipp however, I usually get my grain etc from Geterbrewed in Co Antrim who provide a very good selection and delivery service. They do unmalted barley so I might get some on order. At the moment I have a single malt mash on the go and approx 10 litres of single malt singlings or low wines ready for a spirit run. I’ll definitely add the feints into the stripping run rather than the next spirit run going forward. How many plates would you suggest? My column has the potential for 5.Thanks
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Hello NZChrisI select what to keep by distilling into small jars and tasting later. I keep anything I’m happy to drink and put the rest in the feints jar. I can’t say that anything I ever put in there had flavours that I was sorry to lose. Are you suggesting that I blend some of the heads and tails back into the hearts and see what happens? I’m ready to try anything at this stage.
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Hello higgins Yes – one of the points coming across to me in this thread is how the heads and tails are reintroduced to the process. Thanks for the diagram. I’m going to adopt this (or a similar) method and see if that helps.
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I have only really ran 3 plates as it’s what I have.Plates is what saved the hobby for me, I was sick and tired of making headway booze in a potty, with plates the cuts were much clearer.In saying that, I’ve reverted to running in potty mode, I find that whilst the plater creates a clean crisp whiskey it’s lacking that depth of flavour.Type of malt makes a difference to, I find lager malts lacking in flavour, I prefer ale malts my current go-to is Munich malt from geterbrewed.I ferment on the grain with bakers yeast, I pitch high and lots, about 120g per 80l ferment tossed in at just 35-41c, this ferments hard and quick, it’s done Ina few days.I never clear my mash, just run as soon as its done.Strip down to nothing off the spout, this is from today’s stripping run.
see how gross that is, loads of flavour in there that gets recycled in next run.For me, once I’m in about 10% off the spout I collect an other 5l in a demi, once it’s full I’m at about 0-2%off the spout, this gets added to the next strip.Try to get a full keg charge of low wines if running potty, makes for easier cuts.Be brave with tails cuts if you can, it’ll age out on oak, in barrel is better but on oak in glass is works too, takes loger to clean up though .Don’t be a dick
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That’s what I suspected. That trick works well for neutral or vodka, but not so well for flavored products as you will tend to relegate jars to heads and tails that contain the flavors that you wanted to capture in your hearts. Just because a jar tastes nasty on its own doesn’t mean it isn’t hearts. E.g., you don’t eat salt and pepper on their own, but without them a recipe may be quite bland.I’m not capable of predicting what an individual jar will do to the heart cut, so I have to make up prospective samples to taste.I start by making and tasting a sample of the most flavorless middle jars that are obviously going to make the cut, then adding to it from the jars at each end until I identify the jars that are one too far.
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