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“The Mystery of Wheat: Unraveling the OG Question”
I am puzzled by my recent mashing activity. Possibly others can speculate or provide information. Wheat Whiskey Recipe – 100% wheat15 gallon water40 pound wheat into mash pot at 162℉.1 tbls SebStar HTL enzyme at 162℉ (probably not needed?)Let cool until 140℉.3 tbls SEBAml GL (Low Temp) at 138℉Cool and let starch conversion occur for 10+ hoursIodine test indicated conversion completeCooled with immersion coolerMove to fermentation vessel when temp reached about 78℉OG measured at 1.032Recipe formulations (BeerSmith and Brewer’s friend) predicted an OG of about 1.07. First question is why did the OG fall so far below the expected results?Second question – does conversion continue when in the fermentation vessel to some extent?Any notions would be appreciated.
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14 Replies
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unmalted or malted wheat?iodine test can be misleading, it only means 1) you converted the starch you extracted (but it doesn’t tell you if you extracted some or all of the starch)2) doesn’t tell you if you converted the starch to fermentable sugars (or left them as unfermentable sugars)
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How finely ground was the wheat? If it wasn’t malted, you could have dumped it into boiling water. There are no husks from which to extract bitterness. This would give the HTL a much better chance to work. Also, did you check the pH at point. I don’t use Seb enzymes, but my more locally sourced equivalents have very different pH requirements (The alpha Is optimal at 5.8-6.8pH, the gluco needs 3-5.5pH). When I’ve been relying 100% upon them for conversion, I’ve found myself adding decent quantities of citric acid before the additions.”I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway” – JimboA little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
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Not all wheat contains the same potential starch/sugar. Testing of wheat from a brewers resource would tell you a lot.“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”- W.C. Fields My EZ Solder Shotgun My Steam Rig and Manometer
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Thanks to those who responded so far…Wheat was un-malted — straight from the farm store. Label had protein information but I did not save that label. Characterized as “feed wheat”. This source provides a 50# bag of wheat for about $9 — inexpensive for sure. Future attempts are possible but I obviously need to change something. Grind was not flour like — a bit rougher. My guess is .018 to .020 if considering a typical roller mill. Gelatinization temps for wheat is indicated at 148℉ based on several sources. I raised the temp above that to account for colder grain addition. My notions were that conversion occurs at about 148 that is all that was necessary. Possibly I am incorrect – if so help me understand. I failed to check the ph – my obvious error. Will be checked next time for sure. Anybody know if conversion continues after cooling and the yeast is pitched?I certainly can raise the temp but I do not understand what that would do to the conversion process. If SebStar HTL enzyme is used the manufacturer suggests that it denatures at about 190℉ or so. I wanted to avoid that process. Anyway I still am puzzled.As I write this it is happily fermenting but my concern is the OG variance.
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My alpha enzyme is optimal at around 90C. You need the alpha to break up the starch molecules into chunks that the gluco can work on. I suspect that this is where you missed out on some conversion.”I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway” – JimboA little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
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i went through the same process with unmalted feed wheat.first attempt i was trying to mash normally in a malt pipe using high temp alpha amalase.(my alpha is best at 90°c too)i experienced the swelling of wheat about 85°C, which is it’s liquefaction temp(?), where it almost doubled in size and tried to climb out of the malt pipe and also made recirculation impossible. failed. OG was only about 1030next time i used a BIAB so there was plenty of water and room for the grains to swell, took it 90°C for the alpha amalase to work away.kept it there for about 40 mins, then cooled it to 65°C for the gluco amalase to finish the job. OG was about 1060.each time i ran the wheat through my corona mill 3 times, no idea what size, but pretty fine.i don’t usually bother with iodine tests except on beer, but i did test this mash out of curiosity.i tested after the alpha had finished and while i was cooling it (ie before gluco amalase was added)this showed no starch, which confused me for a while, until i realised that because the alpha had converted the starch to a small amount of fermentable sugars and a shedload of unfermentable dextrin and only tasted slightly sweet.IMHO that’s another instance of where the iodine test can mislead, it can’t tell the difference between fermentable or unfermentable sugars either.i can taste the difference of the mash sweetness as well, using my calibrated right-hand index finger.NB i also did a side by side ferment with yellow angel, i just poured the wheat into 34°C water and added the YL. i got a slightly better return with YL and much much less arsing around.
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Speculation: The issue is probably availability of starches for the enzymes to work on. I would start at a higher temp and the longer time to reach your target mash temperature would make a difference. Make sure the pH is in the right target range, and having a lower pH while soaking is thought to speed the process up as well.
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+1 You have to bust those starches loose in order to get a good conversion.🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting. Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
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Thanks to everyone who responded. I went back and did more research on grains and their respective gelatinization temperatures and characteristics. I failed to recognize that higher temperatures for initial conversion would be beneficial. Waiting for the temp to drop to acceptable levels for the enzymes is essential. Too much ‘engineering thinking’ and not enough practical experience seems to be my underlying issue. Apparently starch conversion is a function of the grain type, elapsed time and the grind of the grain. In this context the term ‘starch conversion’ refers to the release of the starch molecules for use by yeast during fermentation. •Grind the grain as fine as possible – the finer the grind the quicker the conversion will occur.•Raise the temperature above the ‘normal’ gelatinization temperature – will allow the gelatinization process to occur faster and for un-malted grain does not have any negative effects. Will shoot for 195℉ next time.•Be careful on the enzyme addition – if added outside the accepted temperature range it may result in the enzyme denaturing. •The typical iodine test may be misleading — it can’t tell the difference between fermentable or unfermentable sugars. During the initial alpha conversion there will be fermentable sugars and a possibly a lot of unfermentable dextrin and only taste slightly sweet. This characteristic is grain dependent. An obvious blind spot in my knowledge. •ph is extremely important – at the sweet spot it will assist in faster conversion and outside that desired range conversion will be slower. Again, a blind spot in my knowledge relative to its importance. My reliance on the iodine test and lack of an experience base led me astray. A change in process is in order. The notion of Yellow Angle yeast is also intriguing but I am uncertain on the dosage and related temps. If others care to offer specifics, I would appreciate that.
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My recipe based on the data sheet (and taking the middle values more or less) is:8kg of “stuff” (this seems to be the technical term used by the manufacturer – e.g. grains or other starchy carb source)23L of water42g of Yellow Label Yeast.Rehydrate the yeast in a pot. Grind the “stuff” to a rough flour. Mix into warm water (I tend to start with water at about 60C and then adjust the temps as I go to finish at a target of about 30C). When you’ve mixed all the grain into the water, pitch the rehydrated yeast and stir well. This recipe has just enough headspace in a 32L bucket to not cause my wife to file for divorce! Stir (gently) once or twice per day for the first 3 days to de-gas and remix the grains. It’s done when it’s done.If you take gravity readings you should find that at some point the gravity stops changing. The actual values are meaningless but if it’s not changing then the yeast are finished.I’ve tested this with left-over wheat flour, wheat, feed grade barley and most recently, Honey Bear Bourbon. Still waiting on the spirit run for that last one.”I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway” – JimboA little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
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If my metric -> Imperial conversion math is correct, that’s almost 3 lbs of “stuff” per gallon of water. My usual recipes are +/- 2 lb/gal. I know since you’re converting starch and fermenting at the same time, it makes gravity readings unreliable for predicting final ABV. But I’m betting final ABV is pretty high if the conversion is good at 3 lb/gal.Time, patience, and perseverance will accomplish all things.
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yellow angel says for 10kg of grain, to use 50-80gms of YA.temp range 28-36°C, with an optimum temp of 32°C.i just put 25-27L of water at a certain temp in a fermenter.(using a strike water calculator)add the milled grain which drops the temp to 32°C.adjust PH as required.add the hydrated YA and stir gently (not aerate) for 3 days.milling the wheat in the corona takes longer than anything else
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If my metric -> Imperial conversion math is correct, that’s almost 3 lbs of “stuff” per gallon of water. My usual recipes are +/- 2 lb/gal. I know since you’re converting starch and fermenting at the same time, it makes gravity readings unreliable for predicting final ABV. But I’m betting final ABV is pretty high if the conversion is good at 3 lb/gal.I get wash abvs of 9-10% fairly consistently. Higher than I would aim for with a normal AG. But the continuous nature of the process doesn’t stress the yeast as much as dumping them into a concentrated sugar solution. Lacking a heating solution for the minute my YLAY ferments start at 32C and slowly drop to around 20C after a few days. The first few days are active enough that they hold their temperature. I’ve had very clean tasting ferments. I also tend to leave them to naturally clear which gives the yeast more time to clean up. My most recent ones have been steam stripped on the grain and I’m not noticing any off flavours.”I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway” – JimboA little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
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Thanks again for all the advice and personal observations/experience. I decided to change my process for the next go at wheat whiskey fermentation — use Yellow Label Angel yeast. One of the respondents intrigued me with apparent ease of use. The price has come down substantially so why not? YLY is about 30% of my Safale US-05 cost.I fiddled with my yeast worksheet to accommodate the vague Yellow Label instructions. Since I am in America and we still use the ‘old fashioned’ approach to measurement the important part for me was getting a volume measurement that could be used with pounds and gallons and measured in teaspoons or tablespoons. If anyone is interested in the EXCEL worksheet PM me and I will forward same. I will report back regarding my ‘Yellow Label’ experience when I have results.Thanks again to all who offered their views.
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