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Suggestions for a new title: 1. “Pure, Unmalted Wheat and Rye Grains” 2. “Untouched Wheat and Rye Grains: Single and Untreated” 3. “Unmalted Wheat and Rye: The Purest Grains on Earth” 4. “Raw Wheat and Rye Grains: Unmalted Perfection” 5. “Single Untreated Wheat and Rye Grains for Purists”
So let’s start with the grain. We grow wheat ourselves on the farm, and without our permission rye grows between the wheat. So those 2 grains are what I have to work with. I am not trying to make something using added sugar, and I don’t malt the grains. So I use alpha and gluco amylase enzymes in a 100 liter pot, which I will heat with gas, load with 20kg grains and 60 liter water, which after cooking and seperating liquids from solids gives me around 50 liters at a gravity reading of 1.060-1.066 rather consistently, with the rye the yield is lower at around 1.054 using the same recipe. I don’t really know if this yield is decent at all, I am just sort of getting these and rolling with it for now.Fermenting is going well, FG of my wheat wash is around 0.098, and rye 1.02-04. I use wine yeasts, and currently trial-ling different yeasties, although my distilling prowess is probably holding back my wash’s potential. I am seperating my spent grain from my liquids before fermentation, am I losing flavours I might want by doing that?So up to know for the theoretical whisky, I am doing a stripping run, then loading my still with 60 liters at roughly 20% for my spirit run, all the different yeast batches started dripping at 81-84%, I tend to turn the reflux off when doing a spirit run, and (I charged my still with 100liters of 30% for the brandy, started coming of at 78-80%, and got my hearts between 65-70%, giving beautiful flavour.) My hearts for the grains are coming off at 74-76%, really harsh bites actually, without any real flavour. So I am a little stumped, although I know I am doing something wrong. Threw 100liters rye at 10% in the still this morning, came out at lower percentages, had my reflux spit it out between 60 and 65%, but not any real flavours coming through again.I know that there is more flavour to be had, as my very first test batch of whisky I made, I had spitting out in the 60 range, with too much flavour actually, and now it just dissapeared, and I do not know what I am doing differently really. I can give more info, but don’t really know what will be helpfull at this stageEvery morning, I fill er up, wonder when the missus will notice
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19 Replies
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You may get opinions that include advising fermenting on grain, switching out the wine yeast for an ale yeast and malting your grains for the best flavor. I tend to agree with all of these recommendations, but your less-than-optimal results may well be a consequence of your particular grain cultivars. Conventional grain-to-water ratio is 2lbs/gal (1kg/4l) and you are mashing twice that, which indicates a lower level of fermentable sugars. Based on your results, following the above advice may or may not improve the yield/flavor, but you’ll never know until you try. Conducting an iodine test for unconverted starches will indicate how efficient your mashing regime is.“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”- W.C. Fields My EZ Solder Shotgun My Steam Rig and Manometer
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How the grain is initially prepared and dried has an impact. Whether it’s kilned or not has an impact. Malting has an impact. I personally prefer the malted grain flavor contribution and find that process to also increase availability of starches and yield as well. How well the grain is crushed or ground will impact yield and flavor. How long you cook it and at what temperature as well.Starting with the premise that you don’t want to malt the grain, I’d say making sure it’s properly dried, ground and cooked would be the first area to focus on, and once you are confident of that, experiment with different enzyme additions at temperatures and longer mash times with more water in the ratio, fermenting on the grain, etc. Probably none of this sounds novel or new, but it’s probably the right area to focus on.
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Wheat berries are easy to malt. If you soak them and drain, then keep them moist, covered with a white cloth, they will sprout in a couple of days. Keep the grains in a very shallow pan and keep air blowing lightly over the pan. Once the sprouts are about as long as the kernel, you can dry the grains in the sun, or a warm oven. But don’t toast the germinated berries as that will kill the enzymes. When dry, you can pour into an old pillow case and shake to break off the rootlets. The now-malted wheat can be milled for brewing. Malting the wheat will give you a “bread-like” flavor in the beer and that will translate nicely into your distilled spirits. Give it a try.ssMy LM/VM & Potstill: My build threadMy Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate BuildMy stock pot gin still: stock pot potstillMy 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
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ThanksMy next few runs will be to test these methods & what will hold up for me. Got some milled rye, so will be do 100% rye for theseRun 1: Yesterday’s mash using old methodRun 2: Using grain to water ratio Twisted Brick advised above (going to compare yield to Run 1)Run 3: Same as Run 2, but will add more enzymesRun 4: Same as Run 2, but fermenting on the grains – Will be using the same yeast for all 4 of theseWill need to pick up some ale yeast or the like next time I go into town for Run 5 and 6 (on and off grain), still have quite a bit of the wine yeast on hand, so will be using those for run 1-4, have been contemplating getting something of the sort, but will definitely do it now…Malting, damn, I tried malting a batch, but ended up with them growing a bit too much, will probably be looking at doing it again when the weather gets a bit hotter and I can have them dry out in the sun. I also tend to disagree with the Malted Scotch out there, a bit overpowering for my taste, but I don’t really know where the percentages starts to come “in range” for my palateHave never done an iodine test, not sure my batches clear up enough for me to get accurate results on it though. Should probably look at it…The rye is obviously a wild cultivar, and whatever alcohol I get from it basically costs me nothing beside the mashing, fermenting, and distilling, so don’t really mind the “weaker” conversion, but if my wheat should be doing twice as well, I will be taking a deeper look at my mashing regime.Every morning, I fill er up, wonder when the missus will notice
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I would say you are doing well with unmalted grains. Low temp enzymes and fermenting on the grain might allow you to extract more fermentables. Have a look at Angel yellow label yeast as well.
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My grain is proper dried, and finely milled to essentially a dust. Don’t think that is where my problem lies.Malting is a project for the summerMight be cooking it wrong, have not been at it too long, but will share what I do and why, any corrections are welcomed- Strike water at about 67Celsius – I have read somewhere that wheat and rye don’t have to be cooked at such a high temp as corn- Temp will now be around 60C, heat will be on and running until about 69C- first 45 min just cooking- Now adding Alpha amylase and cooking another 45 min- Heat is now off and adding gluco amylase after it has cooled to below 60Cadding 2ml of each enzyme per kg of grain, had weaker conversion when I did less, but that could be because of other reasons as well. Just how my process looks at the momentDoing some runs with rye now that contains more water in the ratio, going to be interesting to see how that turns outI think I am mashing long enough, my temperatures could be off though.Every morning, I fill er up, wonder when the missus will notice
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Bread, now you are speaking my language. I tend to gravitate towards something that is not overly malty, but no bourbons give me that flavor, that is either because they use less malt, or because they are using nice new Barrels.Thought I would just get a decent char and then it won’t matter too much how malted or not it was, although that might not be a accurate assumption that I made.Malting is a project for the summer though, as I will be sprouting and drying them on the barn floor, but it is too damp at the moment, so drying will be a challenge. Looking at doing 80-100kg a batch, so I don’t really have a oven big enough…Every morning, I fill er up, wonder when the missus will notice
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Thanks Quadra, will take a look at it. A quick search shows that there isn’t stock at the moment, will put it on my wishlist to try thoughEvery morning, I fill er up, wonder when the missus will notice
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60C is on the high end for most gluco enzymes. I’m not sure exactly where it begins to denature, but you might try adding at a bit lower temperature. It also remains active at room temperature, although very slow, so a late addition and fermenting on the grain will allow that process to continue even as the yeast works.
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Thanks billgrisWill look to add the gluco amylase at a lower temp on my next on-grain ferment, although I think my supplier said that these gluco amylase are supposed to be more heat tolerant??? Will need to go take a look at the product sheet I suppose…Every morning, I fill er up, wonder when the missus will notice
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Good temp control during the alpha conversion and checking with an iodine test are pretty easy, and if your data sheets get you on the right addition and time schedules you should see some improvements
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Good temp control during the alpha conversion and checking with an iodine test are pretty easy, and if your data sheets get you on the right addition and time schedules you should see some improvements
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Just let me leave it here: har druckit för mycket
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Since the focus of all the help offered has been on grain and mashing end of the process, just wanted to mention something you said in your OP.You mentioned reflux several times, both on and off, and you mentioned lack of/no flavour. Could you please describe the still you’re using, in as much detail as possible?Make Booze, not War!
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Hi MooseMan,My still setup. So essentially my pot is made up of a few kegs that has been cut off, and DIY’d on top of each other, giving my about 110 liters (29 gallon) of volume space to work with, but I never fill above the 100l mark. My 6kw element attaches from the side at around the 35liter mark, 4 inch collumn, 2 sections that I fill with marbles and the 3rd has my copper. 4th section is the reflux, which is another DIY job I bought from a friend, but it does the job, cold water inlet at the bottom of the section, hot water outlet at the top that I control using taps I got from the hardware store (nothing fancy or precise). From here my 4inch becomes a 2 inch, 90 degree elbow, few inches straight section, another 90 degree elbow, connecting to my condenser that runs straight down to the floor again, with my spirit collecting at the bottom.Hopefully this makes sense.Although I have tended to just do the stripping and spirit runs without any reflux added the last while. I have about 200 liters of wine I am going to split into 2 experiments. 1 with full reflux, and 1 with no reflux – just a little experiment I’ll add an update to afterEvery morning, I fill er up, wonder when the missus will notice
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Thanks for providing all the details, it’s made things nice and clear for me to understand what you’re doing. So, what you are trying to make is a grain whiskey with as much flavour as possible, but you are using a reflux setup to run it.Sounds like you’ve got a pretty decent setup there for making high proof, and you’re stripping as you should, but the still as you have it set up is not at all what you should be using to run flavoured spirit. This is what I’d suggest, take off all of the sections and have just the shortest one on the boiler, then your elbow, then the second elbow, then your condenser, that’s it. No packing, no reflux condenser. Heat up on full power then slow it right down before the first drips.Run low and slow, with your power to the element low enough so a spirit run is taking you 5 hours minimum, make good cuts and you’ll get your flavor and plenty high enough proof.Make Booze, not War!
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Thanks, never even thought of running it like you are suggesting, is probably also the better experiment to do with the upcoming brandy runs I was talking about.Updates to followEvery morning, I fill er up, wonder when the missus will notice
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Yes please let us have updates.To keep things really simple, your reflux setup should be used only to make neutral spirits with as high a proof as possible.Anything else you want to make should be run with a “Pot still” setup like I’ve described.Can I suggest that you do a bit of reading about the differences between the two, it will really help you I promise.Make Booze, not War!
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Sound advice.“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”- W.C. Fields My EZ Solder Shotgun My Steam Rig and Manometer
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