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Pulling each other down?
I felt like going on a little rant tonight about how little it helps any of us to belittle each other to customers…
We all know those “connoisseur” type customers who are very opinionated about what they like. In their mind, they’ve tasted all that there is to taste, and they’ve settled upon exactly what it is that they like. Good for them. After sitting behind a desk all day they’ve earned the right to be conceited about what they drink. Even better if it happens to be my stuff that they like. But those types of people are a minority.
Most customers fall more into the category of “I drink it because I’ve never tried anything else.” If we, as small businesses, are lucky enough to ever have this elusive yet ubiquitous person try our spirits, I think that the worst thing that we can do is to start bashing our competition with the hope of elevating our own products in their eyes, regardless of whether that competition is a macro or a micro brand.
In my experience, these customers (who are already putting themselves way out of their comfort zone by trying something new) become even more uncomfortable and start thinking things like, “wow, if all of these other micro brands are so bad, then maybe this one is too” or, “I’ve tried that macro brand before and I kind of liked it. Maybe I just don’t like this micro stuff” etc.
The way I look at it, we’re all in this together. The more success your business has, and the more of a name you make for the micro-distilling movement, the better it is for my business. The more I make your business look bad, the more I inadvertently make my own look bad. This also goes for the macros. I’d LOVE to see spirits take a huge chunk of market share back from beer and wine, regardless of who is producing the spirits.
Sure, there are people out there (both micros and macros) putting filth in a bottle and calling it premium spirit. Do I ever need to say anything more about those products than that they don’t suit my own personal taste? Absolutely not. And while I’m at it, I’ll be sure to direct the conversation towards a spirit that is similar but that I do honestly enjoy.
To me this is just acting professionally. The connoisseur type customers LOVE to try to get me to talk about the various flaws of other brands, but I never oblige. Why break the industry down, when there are so many great products out there that I’d love to build up? Why highlight the blemishes on the industry when I can put a spotlight on the beauty of it?
So if you’re one of those who on occasion talks to customers about how poor another distiller’s product, process, or philosophy is, just think about how you could put that same energy toward talking up your own products, processes, and philosophies. If you talk up other products that you like as well, I’m sure that you’ll find yourself connecting even more deeply with your customers. In the end, I’m sure that you’ll see how much it benefits your business to keep it positive.
And if you, like me, are the sort of distiller who puts in the effort (and it does take quite a bit of effort) to put an overall positive spin on the industry and never bash other distillers’ products, just know that you’ve got one more ally out there!
Nick
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24 Replies
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good words.
no one ever elevated themselves by bringing someone else down.
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That was probably the best post I’ve read on ADI.
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well said!
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We are opening our distillery today, after 23 months of development work and genuine effort. I too share Nick’s comment, “Sure, there are people out there (both micros and macros) putting filth in a bottle and calling it premium spirit.”
I personally have designed, constructed, commissioned, and run distillation units all over the country, much in excess of 20 MGY throughput, and I don’t yet call myself a master distiller….which I think is in part, the core essence of the issue at hand.
Although ADI is a great forum and organization, and although DISCUS is a great political tool and lobbying organization, the critical missing link in this industry is a true certification process organization……someone that we all recognize to certify that a distiller or distillery really does make a true wonderful product(s). The current Status Quo allows anyone with a DSP to call themselves a Master Distiller, mainly because it doesn’t have meaning standardized in the system.
I know that some will answer, MSU (Kris & crew are great, but not a certification org), various distilling classes (but short and perfunctory at best), or finally a true distilling degree (most of us don’t have 4 years to get a Beverage Alcohol Chemical Engineer degree). Inherently I don’t think that any of those answer the question of what makes a master distiller or what makes a good product.
In biodiesel, the government and industry require tests of Parts-Per-Billion in order to qualify as fuel, in beverage alcohol….all we have to do is get the customer to buy the 2nd bottle, regardless of quality, in order to presume quality and we get use non-standard statements like “Ultra Premium”, “Super Premium”, etc, etc, that have no relevance other than marketing because they do not appear in the Standard of Identity.
Ultimately, this industry is going to get pulled (perhaps kicking and screaming) into a standards based quality assessment routine, probably ASTM, due to someone calling themselves a master distiller and putting something into a bottle that winds up hurting someone else……and then ultimately the industry.
In order to stay ahead of that eventuality, we should be sitting as a team and starting to work out some standards proactively that show the industry, and most importantly the consumers, that we are serious about our craft and those that attempt to reach a set of standards can most likely be trusted to create a great product.
Think of it this way…there is not a bridge you’ve crossed, a car you’ve sat in, an appliance you’ve used, or any number of examples of items that you use on a daily basis that were produced without a Professional Engineer’s stamp affixed to the final drawing. That stamp is a certification of the quality of the work that went into what you are using. But you can drink anyone’s rot-gut, even if they call it “Super-Premium” and their business card says “Master Distiller”.
I’ll be at ADI if anyone wants to sit down over a table and hash out a few ideas.
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I’ll be at ADI if anyone wants to sit down over a table and hash out a few ideas.
John,
Some very thought-provoking ideas. Count me in!
Nick
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We are opening our distillery today, after 23 months of development work and genuine effort. I too share Nick’s comment, “Sure, there are people out there (both micros and macros) putting filth in a bottle and calling it premium spirit.”
I personally have designed, constructed, commissioned, and run distillation units all over the country, much in excess of 20 MGY throughput, and I don’t yet call myself a master distiller….which I think is in part, the core essence of the issue at hand.
Although ADI is a great forum and organization, and although DISCUS is a great political tool and lobbying organization, the critical missing link in this industry is a true certification process organization……someone that we all recognize to certify that a distiller or distillery really does make a true wonderful product(s). The current Status Quo allows anyone with a DSP to call themselves a Master Distiller, mainly because it doesn’t have meaning standardized in the system.
I know that some will answer, MSU (Kris & crew are great, but not a certification org), various distilling classes (but short and perfunctory at best), or finally a true distilling degree (most of us don’t have 4 years to get a Beverage Alcohol Chemical Engineer degree). Inherently I don’t think that any of those answer the question of what makes a master distiller or what makes a good product.
In biodiesel, the government and industry require tests of Parts-Per-Billion in order to qualify as fuel, in beverage alcohol….all we have to do is get the customer to buy the 2nd bottle, regardless of quality, in order to presume quality and we get use non-standard statements like “Ultra Premium”, “Super Premium”, etc, etc, that have no relevance other than marketing because they do not appear in the Standard of Identity.
Ultimately, this industry is going to get pulled (perhaps kicking and screaming) into a standards based quality assessment routine, probably ASTM, due to someone calling themselves a master distiller and putting something into a bottle that winds up hurting someone else……and then ultimately the industry.
In order to stay ahead of that eventuality, we should be sitting as a team and starting to work out some standards proactively that show the industry, and most importantly the consumers, that we are serious about our craft and those that attempt to reach a set of standards can most likely be trusted to create a great product.
Think of it this way…there is not a bridge you’ve crossed, a car you’ve sat in, an appliance you’ve used, or any number of examples of items that you use on a daily basis that were produced without a Professional Engineer’s stamp affixed to the final drawing. That stamp is a certification of the quality of the work that went into what you are using. But you can drink anyone’s rot-gut, even if they call it “Super-Premium” and their business card says “Master Distiller”.
I’ll be at ADI if anyone wants to sit down over a table and hash out a few ideas.
there are so many choices of spirits out there that i got to think that if someone is putting filth in a bottle that they wont be in business for very long. its hard enough for a start up distillery thats making great product to make it with all the competition out there . i dont think we need to bring more law and more rules into this biz. i think the guys making the crap will weed them selves out with no sales. cheers
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Bioviper, that exact same thinking is what killed the biodiesel industry in the early 90’s. A few of us were making distilled pure methyl-ester biodiesel and some people were making methanol ridden, watery sludge and selling it as biodiesel. Those people happened to have better connections and were able to get their product into the market and create not only a massive negative backlash (that took years for the entire industry to recover from) but also did lasting damage to diesel engines all over Minnesota.
The take away, is that the court of public opinion is very strong. Although the thought that the industry will weed out the bad ones over time due to inferior product is a nice panacea, the harm to the industry during that same time will also affect the good ones too.
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First off John, congrats on opening! 23 months isn’t bad. We’ve definitely racked up some cell phone minutes over that time. Glad to see you off the ground.
You’re a guy I consider someone with their “head on straight”. No BS. With that said….
I disagree with most everything you mentioned. More government, more bureaucracy, more layers of “filth” to sift through?!? All for another silly warning label?!? The feds, state, and local government do a fine job of setting enough hoops to jump through. I’m with “bioviper” here, the public will vote with their wallets. The majority of the general public are pretty good about sniffing out bullshit (especially when it comes to consumer goods). It happened with the craft beer industry. Darwinism.
As far as titles, that’s semantics. Nobody gains unwavering public trust with a title (within reason). If one sleeps better at night with a self-proclaimed title, so be it. I’m a “master” of many things in my own mind… my wife tells me otherwise.
Qualifications/Standards
I might be on board with that idea, but not exactly how you describe it. One should/could be categorized as a “distillery” or an “independent bottler” or whatever (definitions excluded for boredom’s sake and for the sake of pissing some board members off). A random example: on the bottle define the grain source, distillation method, and aging technique (if applicable). If you don’t make it, then define your bulk spirits source (legal preclusion may hamper this). If anyone cries foul with this, then they shouldn’t be doing it. Why hide it? There’s your consumer transparency. There’s your truth in advertising. Fanciful words be damned. Even clothing tags are required to mention where they are made and of what materials.
BTW, I’ve seen plenty of “PE-stamped” projects/products that are absolute garbage. What makes spirits special? Something someone puts in a gas tank is far different than perceptive taste quality of a distilled spirit. Apples and oranges, in my opinion.
Certifications of “quality”
Most of us here are selling liquor, not a cancer-curing magic pill. Liquor liability insurance is already a necessary evil. Need it be more of a hassle? Furthermore, quality is too subjective. Do we need to perform some sort of gas chromatography analysis and attach the results to each of our products to prove what is/isn’t in them? The consumers will quickly discard such “certifications” and pour themselves a dram. I guarantee it. Does anyone read the “Government Warning” disclaimer? Not unless they’re loaded…. and just for fun at that point.
The only thing I hear when I read your post is FDA regulation. Beer/wine/spirits guys and gals everywhere are shuddering at the thought.
“Quality” Example: Drinking a certain major brand of beer gives me a really bad hangover after 3 bottles, and it hurts my aging body, but nobody is warning me about that except my body. Others around me can drink 12 bottles of said beer and be fine. Is that a “quality” issue? Maybe. Maybe not. Again, too subjective.
In the spirit of the original post in this thread, and correlating with John’s concerns about harm to the industry, yeah you’re sort of on point. Talking smack isn’t going to lift you up, but pointing out differences in how things are made is warranted. Maybe some DSP up the road is making hooch out of leftover feed stock, fermenting it with wild yeast they collected off of a donkey, and distilling it in their steel-toed work boot (obvious exaggeration here). Maybe the consumer hates it (to continue the hypothetical situation). Maybe another DSP is making spirits from certified local organic grain, fermenting it with the care of a brewer, and distilling it in a custom copper pot still. Perhaps that consumer loves that spirit. Points of clarification to the consumer may be in order. Maybe some other DSP is purchasing bulk products and passing off as their own while another DSP strives to form relationships with local farmers and sweats their ass off taking the grain from that farmer’s field and producing a finished bottled product that they oversaw the entire way (at very minimal profit I might add). Do we just chalk all of that up to “caveat emptor” or do we tell the customer that there’s better made/better tasting (or add another so-called marketing statement descriptor here) hooch out there being crafted in exceptional ways?? Micro or Macro, the point is moot. It’s a two-sided coin… but I get what you’re saying.
Cheers!
Bryan
Master Tank Scrubber
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…pointing out differences in how things are made is warranted.
I completely agree, and I like your examples too. I know of more than one customer who would tend to lean toward the donkey yeast boot hooch out of principle, and who am I to criticize their values? Customers who value a technically flawless technique and expensive equipment and ingredients (or at least products marketed that way) are certainly more numerous, but I can think of many examples of such products that simply don’t suit my palate, but that is my own personal taste. Conversely, I’ve tasted spirit that has blown my mind and after seeing the stone-age equipment on which it was produced, been in utter disbelief.
Educating customers with factual information about production techniques is a great way to get them more interested in the industry as a whole. But I think that it is still a very good idea to shy away from claiming some ingredient, technique, or equipment is fundamentally superior to another, or worse yet, than some ingredient, technique, or equipment is inherently inferior. Just because someone ages whiskey in a small barrel doesn’t mean that it’s bad, even if I would most likely describe it as “too oakey for me”. Just because I don’t like the oakiness, doesn’t mean that someone else isn’t going to go crazy for it. I have had many conversations with customers about this very subject, and I have found that there is more or less a 50-50 split on it.
Like you say, Bryan, it’s all subjective. I think that’s the beauty of it!
Nick
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A random example: on the bottle define the grain source, distillation method, and aging technique (if applicable). If you don’t make it, then define your bulk spirits source (legal preclusion may hamper this). If anyone cries foul with this, then they shouldn’t be doing it. Why hide it? There’s your consumer transparency. There’s your truth in advertising. Fanciful words be damned. Even clothing tags are required to mention where they are made and of what materials.
Respectfully, the clothing tag example isn’t true. The tag tells you where the clothes are assembled. The materials, the production of usable textiles, the dyes, etc. can come from anywhere.
To give an example of one of my spirits, the corn comes from the midwest (a blend from various States), the barley is from North Dakota but is malted in Minnesota, and the rye is from Germany and Austria and is malted in Germany. The bottles are from France, the cork is from Portugal, the capsules are from California (I have no idea where their raw materials come from), and the gun I use to shrink the capsules is assembled in Italy. My fermenters are from Pennsylvania, the wood is from Florida and Georgia, and the fittings are from Germany. One still is from Germany, and the other Kentucky. I could go on, but you get the idea. It’s pretty amazing how many hands and how many countries are a part of our processes.
When people talk about where something is made, what they really mean, whether they know it or not, is “who touched this last”?
As for this whole “Master Distiller” thing that I get asked about all the time, you can sit and take the Heriot Watt exam anytime you’d like to get a little piece of paper. The trouble is, you have to have a complete knowledge of brewing as well. This is a major problem for those who have never fermented before, and likely never will. The certification isn’t designed for the public. The certification is designed for potential employers who want to know that the person sitting in front of them has a fundamental knowledge of the subject. That’s it. It’s no guarantee of quality work, and many a Dipl. Braumeister (the German Master Brewer M.S.) out there are all thumbs in a brewery and should stick to research or larger plants where they don’t have to get dirty.
The part of Mr. McKee’s suggestion that has great merit is the pursuit of the piece of paper. Continuing education should be a part of any professional distiller’s M.O.
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My bottom line point is that I see our industry potentially being forced into a QA/QC paradigm like I discussed above. Trust me all when I say that I don’t wish for that to happen, but in the interests of being in front of that eventuality and having the ability to shepherd its development I suggest that we get proactive with an approach.
If the FDA & IRS takes over duties for the TTB, as is suggested in the 2013 Federal Budget, one can guarantee that further scrutiny will land on our industry. If we can step up to that scrutiny and say, “Not only have we been thinking about QA/QC, but here are our suggestions for how it might work,” we stand a better chance of getting the best rules possible for our industry.
Let me say it again, I don’t want to do this just because, I want to do it because I think its going to get forced on us anyway. Why not get ahead of that potential eventuality?
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As a soon to be fledgling entrant into the craft spirits movement, it is a bit concerning to see a newly licensed DSP advocate for regulation and oversight that would most certainly make it more difficult for people like myself to get a foot in the door while strengthing the credibilty and/or market share of those that have gone before me. I haven’t seen if you’ve had any past posts regarding this topic John but I find it ironic that you posted your wish for a ” true certification process organization……someone that we all recognize to certify that a distiller or distillery really does make a true wonderful product(s)…” on the very day that you opened your doors. Best of luck to you either way…I know it wasn’t easy for you or any of the others to get to where you’ve gotten.
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Hewn,
You have an interesting point, not one I had considered. But don’t misread my intent, I don’t believe that we need to have more regulations “just because”, rather I believe that we need to get ahead of what will inevitably come down on us as the industry grows larger.
Thus far this industry has been pretty small, pretty under the radar. However (if you’re here at the ADI conference this week) you can plainly see that this industry’s growth is exploding. I was here last year and the year previously and this year is the first time it felt claustrophobic.
Read the 2012 Federal Budget with regard to rolling the TTB into the FDA. That is the core of my argument. The TTB is only concerned with revenue. Period. However, the FDA is concerned with a great deal of other factors than revenue, factors that can mean at least a 30-50% increase in your CAPEX and build-out budget & a 20-40% increase in your continuing annual operations costs. In your evaluation of your business plan, be conservative and add those factors to your financing such that you have a cushion (even if it doesn’t happen you’ll be in that much better shape).
The only way to mitigate that eventual possibility is to form a group that creates a set of recognized standards that we can give to FDA to meld the process in which they choose to regulate us. Much in the same way that a myriad of industries use the ASTM process to assist the regulators in their specific industries.
But like I said, you have a good point about the perception of trying to hold a market position. I should have done a better job of wording my original post. But please consider the overall intent in your planning.
Best,
McKee
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As a soon to be start up, I must say that I shudder to think that this wonderful and developing industry would even think about a scheme to essentially place a label of “quality” on a product, based on the alleged “taste and experience” of any given individual or entity. I further don’t agree with the “garment” analogy. I spent 25 years in that industry and grew a start up from nothing, to an incredible size. And I never once required a specific label of anything but Made in the USA to make that happen. All It required was making products of a quality that created repeat and word of mouth customers. I can’t imagine if during that time I was thwarted by some “excellence label” bought and paid for by a competitor which proported to tell a potential customer that his product was better than mine.
Imagine an “Excellence label” determining your “taste”. Especially considering that the day the bottle you actually buy was produced, the “master distiller par excellence” was home with the flu, and the 2nd in command of the still was stoned. Yeah, I’d spend extra for that, and disregard someone else because somebody who may or may not still work for distiller X got a gold star.
The customer should determine your quality, not your experience or eduction. Any inference that an individual will stop looking for new things because they spent $30.00 on something they didn’t like, is not sound business theory.
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How many out there scuba dive??? I see many parallels.
After many, many years of existence scuba diving is still a small self regulated industry with very little government regulation. Air is yet to be taxed or did someone figure out how to do it, can we say carbon tax? Anyway, the worldwide diving industry is self regulated and albeit quite safe. One thing that does happen, is that a very scelect few people profit quite handsomely off of the fruits of all others labor. ei: PADI, BSAC, SSI, SDI, and a plithria of other training agencys. For many years I was a Instructor Trainer (taught people how to teach diving) and saw many marginal Instructors getting certified to teach. The bottom line is, it became a revolving door to expand certifications. The more cirts, the more cash. The best and safest instructors out there do it for the love and not the money. They practice their craft and choose to excel passing out their knowledge to people that have a thirst for it. And with all of its pit falls “it works”.
I could go on and on about the structure from an insiders view but I don’t enjoy typing that much. Let the government be evolved in the tax revenue part and strive for self regulation for the quality, safety, and operational part. As far as the self regulation, be very careful what you wish for. One could build quiet a monster if they wished? Or that could be someone’s intent?
Always think of others, be safe, and strive for excellence in all you do.
Just one mans humble words.
-Sudzie
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^^Sudzie, I was just about to use IEEE, which is one organization that regulates technological standards ranging from “Wi-Fi” to integrated circuits, to make roughly the same point. It’s a worldwide organization that is not tied to any single government and seems to mostly rely on the open market for enforcement. It works because I can make a Bluetooth-enabled tablet, you can make a speaker system that can be remote-controlled with Bluetooth and provide an app, and both devices will work together regardless of who manufactured it. Companies that follow widely agreed-upon standards stand a better chance of succeeding; those that go off on their own path tend to fall by the wayside. I won’t deny that there are lousy products on the market that theoretically follow these standards, either, like a lot of the junk you see in the technology department at Wal-Mart that people buy because it’s cheap.
But enough about IEEE. It would most certainly help our cause to form a standards organization. The challenge will be getting enough independent brewers and/or large companies on board to make it stick, along with publicizing, “We’re going to be putting together agreed-upon standards to ensure that our brews are the highest possible quality, regardless of the exact recipe or method. Browse our list of members to find a brewer near you.” Once we have enough sticking power, the open market should do the rest and weed out the ones who don’t follow our standards.
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Self regulation is where it’s at. That way, although a few dissenters may be fringed out of the process, most of us will be happy with the result. What you DON’T want is Big Daddy coming in and telling you what music to listen to. If you catch my drift.
I liked the SCUBA comparison. I spent many years in the industry, even working for the head office of a few of those money-making certification agencies that were mentioned. The reason that it succeeded is that the agencies that were pioneering scuba regulation (PADI, NAUI, BSAC, maybe NASDS…) came up with self-policing regulations that were far more stringent than what government monkeys could even think of. By having a tremendous body of research about diving, they were able to stave off interference by saying “do you know as much about it as we do? Didn’t think so…”
How do we apply that to ourselves in the distilling industry? I’m not sure we can, completely, but competition is a healthy way to weed. It might be good to see regional distiller’s guilds come up with guidelines that carry regional weight. The same way that Oregon Tilth influenced USDA Organic rules, perhaps some of our guilds could guide any burgeoning regulatory attempts. I think it might be easier than trying to set up national organizations that have to deal with 50 different models for alcohol production and sales
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Yes, it will end up with more rules. But as population increases, rules increase. And although I can’t stop the rules, maybe at least I can have a say in the rules that I have to try to make a living by. The BAM and the TTB rules are already screwed six ways from sunday by the distillers that had a say way back when, but I bet they served their purpose to them. I think that’s where I’d like to be….distillers in the year 2120 cursing my name for instituting rules that limit their genetic engineering of cellulosic ethanol beverages!
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I’m a simpleton (and this industry is like the one I am leaving)… I see distilling as an art form and no one should “regulate” art.
One mans trash is another mans treasure… no one should be able to tell me what has value to me, nor should I tell you.
Some people actually like swill in a bottle… who are you or I to say they are wrong. Taste buds are not “regulated” or “standard”.
Last, are not we regulated to death in this great country already! Regulations are a means to “control” by the upper echelon, little guys wouldn’t stand a chance… just sayin
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I’ve really been enjoying the wandering progress of this thread. Now that my application for a license to post opinions in public has been approved by the fierce and tireless federal, state, and local jurisdictions charged with that important task, I’d like to contribute this little gem. I think many of us can relate:
Nick
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Love this video.
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As a Canadian I can relate too.
With three levels of government all wanting compliance it is a hazardous, painful and confusing path .
Business licences from the city including building permits, fire inspections and food safety people.
Plumbing inspections, Sprinkler inspections, Gas inspections, Electrical inspections and drainage.
No word yet on prostate exams.
Municipal fees.
Provincial fees.
Federal approvals and liquor board approvals.
It’s daunting that’s for sure.
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This is a fascinating discussion. As a graphic designer and college professor, the issue of certification comes up quite a bit. Should graphic designers be required to hold some kind of professional certificate? At first blush, the answer would be no, but one could make a compelling argument (and many have) that certification would help elevate the profession. Given the history of distilling, mandatory certification would never work, but I can definitely see a place where voluntary certification by an industry respected body could be of value.
I look forward to reading more about this.
Brian KolstadAsotin County Distilling Co.
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Thanks Nick for starting this post. It has developed into a great post in many ways
I have many years of business ownership, consulting, professional board experience, regulation development, government lobbying for legislative purposes, and a ton of other things, but this isn’t a post about my resume!!
Firstly, no business gets anywhere in the long term by cutting down the competition. If you want to be better than the competition, don’t cut them down, just BE better than the competition. Whether that is better customer service, better location, fancier bottle, etc etc etc, but it can be very subjective when you say better product. Keep in mind that you are producing a product that you are proud enough of to put your name on. In the end, the product will speak for itself. However as history has shown, marketing can make it better than it actually is!!! but that’s a different topic
Secondly relates to the the direction that micro / craft / artisan distilleries will take over the next years. This to me this is a craft, your interpretation of what a specific spirit should be and how it should taste and how it should be produced (within the constrains of the governmental guidelines and of course a safe drinkable spirit). If it is what people like, they will buy it and if not, it will fail. Regulations are important but look at how long it has taken to have regulations, set in place many years ago by the big players, changed to allow this fledgling craft industry to even exist. Regulations are often put in place lobbied by those who have become established trying to protect their own livelihood by restricting new business from entering the marketplace. The basis of self-protectionism, now that I’m in, lets try to shut the door. Careful thought needs to be taken to over-regulation of a new ARTISAN industry or all we are doing is repeating history.
It can be a slippery slope if we regulate the art out of artisan.
Just my 2 cents
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