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Mashing Grains: Rye, Oats, Wheat, and Corn at 190 F or Higher
We have our new mash cooker/stripping still really on track now. Consistent mashing schedules and streamline Bourbon production.
I’ve done a few different mash styles so far where I cook corn over 190 for approximately 1 hour then add our other grains and hold around 170 for 30 mins.
Also steps for different grain gelatinization temperatures.
Recently I’ve been throwing all the grains in at once, bring to about 195 and holding for about 1 hour, we use enzymes for all of our mashes.
I’ve noticed more of a “pungent earthy” not in a bad way and definitely some super dog fart low wines.
Despite the aromas, the finishing runs are producing a more flavorful rich white spirit with the tails coming on a little bit earlier.
I figure if you have to bring corn to that temperature and cook for an hour why not all of your grains and save time?
Anyone doing this?
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18 Replies
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The main reason it is not commonly done is tannins from the hulls will leach more with temp increases. Im guessing you can attribute the flavor difference to the hulls leaching.
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Except tannins have absurdly high boiling points and won’t come over the lyne.
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Yeah the tannins wouldn’t be a scare is this situation. Although I’m thinking the aroma changes might be from the oats/hulls. just a thought
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He said the mash is “pungent” earthy but the spirit is richer with more aroma. In theory, yes tannins/phenolics may have a higher BP than ethanol, but so do many of the flavors and water that gets carried over into the final product. There is no reason to think that tannin leaching won’t have any effect on your end product just because it has to follow a vapor pathway, in my opinion. If the grains are constant and the temp is the variable, that would be my guess.
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Hey Nepa. I mash like that Corn, rye, wheat, all in cold with Seb-flo. Rip the steam and I am visually gelled by about 160-165 on my bourbon more like 170-175 on my rye. So gelled that my agitator isn’t moving the whole mess any more so my heat transfer is pretty non existant. In goes the Seb-star and boom right before your eyes it liquifies, then I’ve got heat transfer and I finish going up to 180 and hold for an hour. Bring it down for malt and some Seb-amyl and I’m set. Consistent 20-21 brix. Mash tastes like the most delicious sweet breakfast porage I’ve ever had. I actually usually have a bowl!, haha. Dog fart low wines for sure, but delicious spirit!!! I’ve felt that the tails do come a little early too, so I bring in a little reflux to hold them off, get the proof back up around 150 and squeeze a few more (slightly more neutral) gallons out before going to tails. Works good over here anyway!!
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That is true, I mean if you burn your mash that sure as hell carries over. Just not present in the same way as beer brewing.
Scrounge, I Pm’d you, sounds like your ways are what I’m interested in.
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By the way, Also using some BSG enzymes for the past two runs and just not happy. They don’t seem as reactive as other enzymes I’ve used
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I suggest Novozymes for anyone looking for some enzymes that actually work (Shout out to Mattabv for their recommendation).
Myself and a few other distilleries using wheat have had nothing but problems with Specialty Enzymes and very low conversion with their Sebamyl BAL (most of us were using wheat). The BSG enzymes didn’t really work all that great either, but the Novozymes work like a champ every single time and they have a lot of data sheets for those who really want to maximise their enzyme’s efficiency.
One thing about this industry I’m surprised at is how many people don’t understand that enzymes are a very precise tool which require some science to work. They are pretty specific tools like a 10mm wrench, that wrench will not fit a 9mm or 11mm bolt so an enzyme will not convert something it’s not meant to convert. On top of that, it will probably only work well within a very specific pH and temperature range. I’ve spoken to a few distilleries that don’t test pH and just dump it in an pray for the best. Too high/low pH or temp, or using the wrong enzyme for the process and you might as well just be dumping water into your mash.
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Skaalvenn,
I think I have used them in the past and had satisfactory results, but I think there minimum amount is a 5 gallon jerry jug?? We use about 135mls to a mash, that container would be around forever.
I understand about the precision, the BSG seem to be the most finicky so far, but still with correct pH and temp it took 15 minutes to liquifiy. Even when I first started with enzymes, it was either Novo or Specialty that were champs but I could have utilized them better.
Does anyone think these enzymes being shipped in winter could have done something? I know they say to store em cool, but how cold is to cold?
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Nepa we use novozymes and yes the smallest container they sell is a 5 gallon jug
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Does anyone think these enzymes being shipped in winter could have done something? I know they say to store em cool, but how cold is to cold?
If I remember correctly enzymes are very tolerant of cold temperatures and it takes a lot to denature them.
For the 5 gallon jug, the best thing is to find other distilleries near you and split up the cost.
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We use Specialty Enzymes and have for years. We love their products and get the results they advertise – provided we stay within the guidelines they recommend. As mentioned above, enzymes are a relatively precision tool. Miss the mark on temp or pH and it’s not going to do what is suggested. In that regard, it helps to have a mashing ‘map’ that reminds you, by time, when to check and record the pH, temp, starch conversion, etc. We’ve been documenting all of these datapoints for years and it has seriously helped improve efficiency.
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provided we stay within the guidelines they recommend.
I tried the guidelines of the datasheets they provided, and also the advice I received from their technical support which was to basically ignore the data sheet, go 15 degrees higher than recommended temperature and bring the pH down 1.0 more than recommended. Had the same results either way.
Don’t ask me why they publish a data sheet and then tell you to go outside the range, but that was my experience with them.
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Well cleaning a corn scorched still today.
Come Friday I’ll be giving the specialty enzymes a go, see how they work out.
Any NY distillers using Novozymes?
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Hey NEPA – I am real small too and use Novozymes (Termamyl SC). I use about 250ml a week and just finished my first jug a couple weeks ago (year & a half or so). I had no noticeable difference from the start to the finish, as well as nothing different when I used the new batch last week. Same BRIX, same full ferment, etc. I just kept the whole thing in the fridge which was a bit of a pain, but overall it worked fine and for a long time.
I have no experience with the San Extra L yet and have a sample coming. But the longevity of the SC seemed to be OK and was about $250 total.
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Any NY distillers using Novozymes?
Just the Viscoferm – http://www.novozymes.com/en/solutions/food-and-beverages/distilling/hgf/Viscoferm/Pages/default.aspx
This product has a very noticeable impact on the thickness of our rye mash. Does a great job of thinning things out, and its hard to imagine us running without it at this point.
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Okay…i’m going to admit this..bring on the shaming…my pH meter was wayyy off.
New equipment on the way and I’m going to be doing it the way Scrounge suggested earlier on here.
“””” I mash like that Corn, rye, wheat, all in cold with Seb-flo. Rip the steam and I am visually gelled by about 160-165 on my bourbon more like 170-175 on my rye. So gelled that my agitator isn’t moving the whole mess any more so my heat transfer is pretty non existant. In goes the Seb-star and boom right before your eyes it liquifies, then I’ve got heat transfer and I finish going up to 180 and hold for an hour. Bring it down for malt and some Seb-amyl and I’m set. Consistent 20-21 brix. “””
Anyone else using 3 enzymes?
Also thanks to everyone who reached out!!
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Also, I will be doing another run with the BSG enzymes since the previous scorching was most likely my fault.
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