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Further Inquiries about Plated Columns
The growing pains hurt. Today I tried running my potato vodka mash with 6 plates and had some trouble. Can you overpower a plated still, short of flooding it? Or do you want to hammer the power and induce as much reflux as your RC and PC can handle?I got the plates loaded and happily bubbling. After stabilizing I reduced flow to the deph and adjusted output. First few jars of heads went perfect. Azeo and good separation. After where my hearts should have been, I realized it smelled off and the head temp went from 78C to 82C. Checked abv. 82%. Wtf? Ended up having to shut it down and throw it all back in and start over. Second run I amped up the power (which required 3/4 turns on the needle valve as opposed to 1/4). All jars until tails were azeo. If the first jars were low it would make sense to me. But why did the heads come off great then I suddenly wasn’t getting good reflux, and had bad smearing? Is it simply the fraction of heads with a lower BP got enough power, then once I got towards the middle the BP was higher and I didn’t meet the required power Input? If that was the case I would think the unchanged reflux input would have knocked down more vapor and slowed offtake. But it didn’t. Can someone please explain the science of this issue? I think it’s what ruined my first go with rum and a neutral through 10 plates as well. Thanks.
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21 Replies
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Definitely, half the equation is power, the other half is takeoff rate. Then plate design.There’s a range that plates work best at. Hammering with power ain’t going to work. that’s what you do to a packed column, not a plated one.My advice is Go Big.Bubble caps real advantage over the other options is the ability to run slow and easy.In other words, If Ya want both speed and quality, use a larger diameter plate that’s driven gently.
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Definitely, half the equation is power, the other half is takeoff rate. Then plate design.There’s a range that plates work best at. Hammering with power ain’t going to work. that’s what you do to a packed column, not a plated one.My advice is Go Big.Bubble caps real advantage over the other options is the ability to run slow and easy.In other words, If Ya want both speed and quality, use a larger diameter plate that’s driven gently. Man this is perplexing. I can see why (Yummy?) shelved his. Started with about 1600w. This was enough in full reflux to have all six plates fully loaded and seeming like they were on the verge of flooding. Second attempt I went to almost 3000w and had no issue. I know that’s a huge range, but the massive amount of power increase seemed to work out fine? The nerd in me cares more about the why. If it wasn’t enough power I’d expect it to slow to a drip like hitting tails. But the takeoff stayed consistent. I know a packed column is ideal. Still working on if it’s worth it with my ceiling height when I can get azeo with 6 plates. But I also like that I can adjust plates to (hopefully) bleed through more flavor like I wanted with this run. A packed column you get what you get. And I didn’t really want that for this or rum.
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I would think 1600w is definitely not enough power for 6 plates. I have 3000w for four 3” plates and that’s pretty close to what I need. I think I run it about 2700w.
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What about the take off rate.
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What about the take off rate.I kept it dead on 2LPH for both the failed run and successful. It only fell on the last run, drastically, right as the run was ending at the tails. I don’t understand the first run. I mean sure underpowered which keeps biting me in the ass. But why it behaved the way it did is confusing as hell to me. No warning to increase power until it was too late.
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Next time keep the power constant and let the take-off naturally slow down.
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Next time keep the power constant and let the take-off naturally slow down.That’s exactly what I did. On both.
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Pretty sure Yummy shelved his because the product was not to his taste, not due to difficulty in running it.On your run power as stated was probably to low, your second run seemed to be successful though.I must be lucky with mine, I pretty much turn it on and move the needle valve twice during the run and it makes a fine rum.Give it a few more goes, once you have it dialled they make a lot of quality product very quickly ” you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can’t always wipe your friends off on your saddle” sage advice from Kinky Friedman
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fiery,Much too low a power, 1600 watts on the first run. I have been studying vapor rates up a column recently and have some estimates that could explain your problems. The vapor rate up the plated column depends on the pot power and the vapor abv of the plate. So the top plate in the 1600 watts run had in vapor abv in the 80’s%. That would give a vapor rate up about about 4.4 L/hr ( if all distillate ). The reflux flow rate coming down would be 2.4 L/hr for your 2 L/hr takeoff. The reflux ratio would be about 1.2, a very low value, and even lower on the plates below. The main reason for your low product abv.Running at 3000 watts is much better because the vapor up the column is higher and so the reflux coming down will be higher and reflux ratio is higher. At 3000 watts and 95% top plate abv, the vapor rate up is about 10.8 L/hr, so 8.8 L/hr reflux flow and a 4.4 reflux ratio. Much better. Six plates did the job.Another way to get higher reflux ratio is to lower the takeoff rate, but 2 L/hr is probably as low as you want to go.I would say for a 10% wash, the highest you could go with bubble cap plates is 4000 watts, you could get into flooding possibly above this. But now you know that 3000 to 3500 watts is a good spot for azeo.Check out my October 29, 1922 post on bubble caps in the thread below, I think I have showed you the max bubble cap power graph already. But never pointed out a low power range. A lower power would be used when you want to make a product with abv’s in the 80%’s and leave some of the flavors in the product.haggy
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Dang, no wonder you’re so good at this. That’s a lot of time in the saddle!Haha. As always, a wealth of information. Thanks Haggy!I hate trying to run by numbers. Seems to be against what most here preach. But the plates at 1600 vs 3000 were virtually indistinguishable by sight, output, temp, or ABV (until it went wrong). Guess this is where good notes and data tracking coming in handy!
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What diameter is your plater?Caps or perforated?1600w is way low for 4in plates was never going to work, 3000w isn’t high either.Run it hard, find where it floods then dial it back until it stops flooding.Run it again, and again and again, that’s how you get the hang of it.You’ll get thereDon’t be a dick
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Yep it will pretty much look the same regardless of your power input, the ABV dropped out due to insufficient power.That’s why most people have a base setting for their plated stills, they really need to be dialled in.Once you have that baseline you can make small changes based based on what the ABV of your mash/wash and the desired flavour profile.As SP said keep at it ” you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can’t always wipe your friends off on your saddle” sage advice from Kinky Friedman
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I run between 14.5 and 16 Amps on 220V for 5 perf plates. So between 3000 to 3500 watts, but closer to the lower end. My plates are old school on a central rod, so there are gaps around the plates. 1600 watts is not going to work.My first fluteMy pressMy twinsMy controllerMy wife tells me I fell from heaven covered in white. Why did they let me fall?
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Setsumi that last post tells me that you know exactly what the problems can be with older plated columns that use plate trees.Good to see that a few of us are still using those types of columns , but also know how to compensate for those stills idiosyncrasies. Not hard once you learn how to make them do what you want and at the same time keep the still happy….. bit of a juggling act , but achievable. Might like to think about the fact that for every person that shelves one there are another 30 or more people who don’t. If plated columns were such pieces of shit I’d guess that companies like Still Dragon would have gone broke years ago.You can love them or hate them…personal opinion and your call.I love my column and I’ll be sticking with it.
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Thanks for the replies. I now have notes for 3 separate plate configurations that failed and needed to be rerun. You’d think I’d have learned after the first two about underpowering If nothing else now have exactly what doesn’t work on paper. Besides the learning curve I do love the plater. It’s fun to at least feel like I can manipulate the flavor profile and reflux by introducing more plates. Surprisingly my potato vodka came out too neutral for my liking with 6 plates. Also surprised with how obvious smearing is. On the spuds, my hearts smelled like a spicy V8 or dried pepper flakes. I definitely screwed up SBBs rum from smearing running it too low and can’t wait to try again.
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Most of us original plate owners started off with perf plates not bubble caps .Perf plates have the advantage for a beginner in that you very quickly dial in the amount or heat required to get them working . There is a narrow band of heat between collapsed plates and flooded plates . And in that band just happens to be where they make the best spirit .Bubble caps can operate over a much wider operating range . This would make the dial in much harder . I can see how you have so much trouble . Yes I did shelve mine . I used to run outdoors and in it’s original CM ( Defleg ) I had bug issues with wind effecting my burner despite various attempts to protect it . When I converted it to VM it was much more reliable . Sporacle is correct , I shelved it and went back to Pot and Thumper looking for different flavour .My recommended goto .wiki/index.ph … ion_Theory
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Forgive me if I already asked but can you share a pic of the plates?
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Forgive me if I already asked but can you share a pic of the plates?
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Bubble caps look good, the downcomer diameter and cup could be deeper.Just guessing, 2200 to 3200w power, and a takeoff slow enough to keep the plates loaded.Somewhere around 1.5 to 2 ltrs per hour. If you try to push the plates harder than that depending on the plate spacing, entrainment will become a problem
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When I built my 4″ 3 sieve plate column I was able to dial it in pretty good using haggy’s plated column calculator. It isn’t perfect (what is?) but it is very close and was a great tool to get the plater running right. Here’s a link to that topic: viewtopic.php?p=7729471#p7729471HigginsFlute buildSteamer build4 methods experimentAging proof experimentNext batch: Malt Whiskey (60 barley/30 corn/10 wheat)
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I took a similar path. I started with sieve plates and recently moved to bubble caps and have found the caps to be more difficult to dial in. I’ve had to rerun a few batches because there was more smearing than I like. Take good notes through you run and reference them as you go. You will find the sweet spot eventually.I’ve stopped fighting my inner demons. We are on the same side now.
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