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Corn Whiskey
ok below s the TTB definition of corn whiskey It makes total sense as far as the mash bill and the distilling.
My question is about the barrels and aging if you choose to. Are my assumptions below correct.
1 If they are new they can not be charred correct?
2 If they are used they can be charred (seems lost of people use old whiskey barrels for this) and if this is true could you use a old wine barrel and char it yourself? Since it is used.
Whisky produced at not exceeding 80% alcohol by volume (160 proof) from a fermented mash of not less than 80 percent corn and if stored in oak containers stored at not more than 62.5% alcohol by volume (125 proof) in used or uncharred new oak containers and not subjected in any manner to treatment with charred wood
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15 Replies
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Whiskeytango
Your first statement is not an assumption. It’s spot on to the standard.
“As two your second statement – yup, it would seem that if they are used they can be charred, since “uncharred” clearly does not modify “used.” I’d agree with that.
But that last statement is a duzzie and I’ve got to confess that I’m without an answer. The best way to track that down, short of asking someone in TTB who probably doesn’t know either, is to go back to when the corn standard was first incorporated into the regulations in the form we find her, look at the Federal Register discussing the adoption of the final rule and at the Notice of Proposed Rule making that set the process in motion, and see if TTB expresses its intent in the explanations they include in their discussions. I suspect that they allow used charred oak because the former aging has taken away the char character, so that charring a used barrel might not be permissible because it restores the ability to give the whiskey a charred character. That line of reasoning would be consistent with the prohibition against subjecting corn whiskey “in any manner to treatment with charred wood.” I suspect that the “in any manner” means to prohibit more than just the use of charred chips, etc.
Someday, if I’m really bored, I’ll try to run down the rule making. One of the problems is that we only have online copies of the Federal Register going back about 20 years, so if you want to find older ones, you have to go to a government records depository or hook up with them through a subscription service like HeinOnline.
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Try calling someone who deals with used cooperage, like Kelvin Cooperage. I’ve seen barrels coming out of major national distilleries that are obvious 2nd use, but are aging bourbon. Which to me means that there might be a loophole, wherein, people are popping the heads, re-charring, and calling that a “new” barrel.
Kelvin might have some insight.
Cheers,
McKee
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While you probably can not char a used barrel, you can remove the char on a used barrel, just like they do for scotch.
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Hey all,
I did incidentally find out more about this topic today. Recharred barrels with recharred heads are still in the category of used barrels, thus, the spirit cannot be a bourbon, rye or malt. It must be a “whiskey from a” bourbon, rye or malt wash.
Cheers,
McKee
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And by that logic it can also be a Corn whiskey since its aged in used barrels?
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Whiskey Tango,
Yep. http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam/chapter4.pdf. Or “whiskey distilled from a Bourbon mash”….if you want to be able to get the word Bourbon on your label somewhere….Just thinkin….
Cheers,
McKee
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And by that logic it can also be a Corn whiskey since its aged in used barrels?
No. By no logic. Recharred is NOT a new charred oak barrel, it is a charred used oak barrel, but not a used charred oak barrel. OK semantics, but they matter. Corn whiskey can not be in a charred oak barrel unless it is used after being charred.
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Ok that makes sense, But just for fun, and friendly argument.
If i take my used barrel that i have freshly charred and dump a whiskey in it for 30 seconds and call that a white whiskey since it has been aged on oak. The barrel is now used.
Again this is just for friendly argument sake. Lol
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Ok that makes sense, But just for fun, and friendly argument.
If i take my used barrel that i have freshly charred and dump a whiskey in it for 30 seconds and call that a white whiskey since it has been aged on oak. The barrel is now used.
Again this is just for friendly argument sake. Lol
That IS true. Keep the records, and nothing prevents you from doing that. Very interesting idea, by the way, but if the corn whiskey ends up tasting like bourbon, what would be the advantage of labeling it corn whiskey instead of bourbon? So it only really makes sense if you want to label the white whiskey as whiskey?
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True I’m sure Bourbon has more appeal than corn whiskey. But now sure how much appeal a lightly aged bourbon would have. I think a light aged corn whiskey would be better but i have no idea really. Just kicking around ideas
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In response to the OP, new barrels can (and usually are in the USA) be charred. Once a cask has been used to store a beverage, it is a used cask no matter what you do to it. This does not apply to liquids used during cooperage or used to preserve the cask prior to use (i.e. water).My reading of § 5.22 The standards of identity (quoted below for bourbon, but also applies to wheat whisky, rye whisky, malt whisky and rye malt whisky) is that one could first store the spirit in a new charred oak cask and then finish it in a used cask. I think that this might be the loophole to which McKee is referring. I cannot find any upper limit on the size of the “charred new oak containers.” Thus, if you wanted to use used casks for flavor reasons but still wanted to be able to label your product “rye whisky,” you could briefly “store” the spirit is a very large charred new oak container (wood:liter decreases with vol for similar casks) and then transfer to casks of your choice. “Whisky produced in the U.S. at not exceeding 80% alcohol by volume (160 proof) from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn and stored at not more than 62.5% alcohol by volume (125 proof) in charred new oak containers.”
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Does anyone have a good read on how this all applies to Makers 46? Aged in new cooperage, then dumped, the barrel’s head popped off, toasted french oak staves inserted into the barrels, resealed, then re-filled with the same juice? Its still called bourbon, correct? If so, doesn’t that lend credence to the first use cask must be new oak, but after that you can mess around all you want?
McKee
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John,
Makers 46 is still bourbon, but because of the additional wood treatment it is no longer straight bourbon. I am not sure if the label requires the extra text (“Kentucky Bourbon Whiskey Barrel Finished with Oak Staves”) or if they add it for marketing. Angels Envy’s label is similar.
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In response to the OP, new barrels can (and usually are in the USA) be charred. Once a cask has been used to store a beverage, it is a used cask no matter what you do to it. This does not apply to liquids used during cooperage or used to preserve the cask prior to use (i.e. water).
My reading of § 5.22 The standards of identity (quoted below for bourbon, but also applies to wheat whisky, rye whisky, malt whisky and rye malt whisky) is that one could first store the spirit in a new charred oak cask and then finish it in a used cask. I think that this might be the loophole to which McKee is referring. I cannot find any upper limit on the size of the “charred new oak containers.” Thus, if you wanted to use used casks for flavor reasons but still wanted to be able to label your product “rye whisky,” you could briefly “store” the spirit is a very large charred new oak container (wood:liter decreases with vol for similar casks) and then transfer to casks of your choice.
“Whisky produced in the U.S. at not exceeding 80% alcohol by volume (160 proof) from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn and stored at not more than 62.5% alcohol by volume (125 proof) in charred new oak containers.”
I may just be missing something, but I can’t seem to find a section that actually articulates “finishing”. Is it in a different section.
As to everyone else, doesn’t this sentence preclude even used barrels from being charred, (before or after its use):
” and not subjected in any manner to treatment with charred wood”
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I may just be missing something, but I can’t seem to find a section that actually articulates “finishing”. Is it in a different section.
As to everyone else, doesn’t this sentence preclude even used barrels from being charred, (before or after its use):
” and not subjected in any manner to treatment with charred wood”
Possibly finishing is interpreted by the TTB as flavoring, and hence it can’t be called a straight and requires a statement of how it has been flavored.
Treatment here refers to anything beyond the stated allowed aging in used charred oak barrels.
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