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Assistance required for Mash
Hello, I need some critique and advice on this mash, aiming for max ABV and Flavor. I’m restricted only by time, I’m open to enzymes but prefer not to use a lot. I also plan on presoaking grains for an hour or until saturated at room temp. My Average DP is 16 using 60% corn 25% wheat 10% 6 row malted barley and 5% rye. Grind is basically rough. Ph of water is 7 and slightly soft. Grain bill won’t change and I’m avoiding PH adjustments or additives at all cost. End game is to produce a bourbon. Hoping to use this groups knowledge base like a think tank for our new bourbon. Hope one day to bring this product to market and would like to make everyone a part of it.
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13 Replies
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Some thoughts from a non-expert. If you’re adding the HT enzymes as the temperature drops, then you’re not staying in the sweet spot for those enzymes for very long. You’ve got a nice 1h20 for corn starch gelling, but then you only give the enzyme about 5 minutes to do it’s thing. Put the enzymes in earlier so they run in parallel with the gelling, or give them a longer rest at their optimum temp.From an energy efficiency point of view, this plan looks like a disaster, unless you have some way of capturing the heat lost on the drop to the protein rest, and then re-injecting it when you come back up for saccharification. If you can use multiple tanks, you might be better bringing your rye up through the protein rest in a separate tank, and mixing the two for the saccharification rest. You could even potentially use the barley (not “barely”!) to get the temp down the final few degrees as would happen with strike water.I don’t think that max ABV and flavour are compatible goals. My feeling is that the more alcohol there is in the wash for the same amount of grain, the less flavour there will be in the final product. I could easily be wrong on this, but that’s my understanding.Will we also be getting a cut of the profits? Or at the least a sample? This is not what’s meant by “inclusivity”! “I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway” – JimboA little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
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I’m not sure what the TTB rules are for profit sharing, discounts or samples(100% want to do this as the product ages, give out score cards or something) This is something I would be willing to do for anyone who contributes before this comes to market, Or at the very least make them an honorary founding father or something. We are just starting out but the Business Is registered with Missouri SoS. under Fleeting Moments Liquor. FML for short. We will have some cool gear and shirts too. <-would that work?
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I agree with NormandieStill that if you’re going to use HT enzymes you’ll get the most benefit by applying them early. Also, what is the purpose of the presoaking? I would think that would only give any potential infection a head start.
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Pre soak wont be that high of a risk. from what Ive read the temps are too low and not long enough for a strong infection to take hold. But it will allow the grain to fully saturate with water, so less time in a dry powder state while it’s heating up also less dust. < a lot less.
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Would stoping the heat at 60min mark to 180 and then adding the HT and let it ride for 30 min at 180 be a better option?
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Not seeing where the dust issue comes in, especially if you’re using a coarse grind. I dump my milled corn into boiling water, apply the HT enzymes right away, the temperature having dropped to about 190, then just let it ride all the way to pitch temp, adding other grains as desired and the gluco enzyme to the manufacturer’s specs. I don’t see the benefit of the temperature raising and lowering in your plan, especially with little rye content.
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The gelling thing is a heat vs time thing… at least to some degree. At room temp, you’ll possibly die of old age before your corn finishes gelling, but you can get a lot done by allowing it to cool slowly, over a long time. A good solid boil at the start will help kill most of the things that might cause an infection early on, it’s only once you’re dropping down from saccharification that you want to go fast and pitch your yeast. A decent thermal mass and some insulation might let you just heat once for the corn, rather than having to keep the heat on as it turns to porridge. This is one thing that is hard to simulate at the hobbyist level. When you scale up from say 5L to 50L to 500L, the thermal mass gets greater. This can mean that when fermenting a 5L wort you need some heat input to keep the yeast happy, once scaled to 500L you need to cool them down to hold the same temperature. Just putting this out there in case you’re testing at a small scale, and expecting to simply do the same thing in a larger container when you scale up.Exactly what you need to do with your enzymes will depend on their optimum temperature range. If you want maximum efficiency from your corn, I would think that letting the enzyme run in parallel with the gellification would help get the maximum from your grains. Ideally, if you’re looking to optimise this process, you need to do some experimentation and have the ability to quantify the results. As in, you need more than a simple iodine test to tell you if starch is present, you need to know the concentration. That way you can test samples taken at (say) 20 min intervals. (I think you need a colorimeter and the ability to add precise measures of iodine solution as well as a calibrated sample.). The normal approach here of “leave it overnight”, or “boil the hell out of it for an hour while stirring” does not scale well in terms of commercial energy use.The graph you posted could well have the time scale removed and at each rest be simply labelled “long enough”. I’m not sure that most folks here could determine what “long enough” would be for your equipment.I was mostly screwing with you. Those who don’t want to contribute for free to a commercial venture will simply abstain. “Cool gear” sounds nice, but I’m in France and shipping would almost certainly make any physical reward system nonviable. I’d take my name on a plaque somewhere if it came to it, but personally I’d be most happy if you keep us posted on what you find works, so that you feed knowledge back into the forum. “I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway” – JimboA little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
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I was mostly screwing with you. Those who don’t want to contribute for free to a commercial venture will simply abstain. “Cool gear” sounds nice, but I’m in France and shipping would almost certainly make any physical reward system nonviable. I’d take my name on a plaque somewhere if it came to it, but personally I’d be most happy if you keep us posted on what you find works, so that you feed knowledge back into the forum. Good tips and tricks and appreciate the assist from our pals from across the pond. My Business partners family (4th generation) is from Lyon. I believe that’s the Rhône district/county. He will be happy to hear about this.
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For us we have dust so maybe our grind is finer than yours. Also, We want to avoid any dough balls, The temp drop is needed to avoid denaturing the enzymes in the malted barely when it’s added in and then slowly raising the temp to achieve maximum efficiency of the enzymes.
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I don’t have a whole lot to add here. But I’m curious if you have looked into other distilleries at a similar size to what you plan on? You’re so close to other states where there are a ton of distilleries. I bet they would be friendly and help you out by walking you through their processes. That could be a valuable learning experience.Also, equipment could change your whole process. There are automated systems… all kinds of systems that make the brewing/fermenting process easy and very efficient. As well as computer programs that help with efficiency.13.5g/50L keg modular 3″ pot/VM copper&stainless w/offset gin head26g 4″ stripping still5500watts of fury
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I think presoaking is a waste of time resources and opens you to additional infection. Your mash bill doesn’t have enough diastatic power to convert the whole of the starches, without running it through my calculator I’d guess its roughly only about 65-70%, so I’d add about 1/3 the recommended dose on the bottle to get a better conversion. The other option is to increase your 6 row distillers malt to about 18% of the total mash bill.There’s speculation amongst some pros that the use of exogenous enzymes converts products that are undesirable, so while you may get 100% conversion, your converting products that you either don’t want or don’t add good flavor… a lot of people are going to disagree with me on this.There is historical evidence to support that the grainy flavor you get in old (pre-prohibition) whiskey is unconverted starch. While the starches don’t carry over in the distillate, some of the aroma components do, lending to a more flavorable and aromatic whiskey. All this to say that it may not be a bad thing to only convert say 90% of your starch… really it just depends on the kind of whiskey you intend to make.Your pH is also too high… 5.2-5.5 is ideal. I know you don’t want to change it but at that high of a pH you’re promoting the growth of other shit you don’t want and are unnecessarily going to stress your yeast.There are two types of people in this world.1. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete information.
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The Ph should drop when adding grain right? My starting Ph is 7
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It should drop some, hard to say it if will go that low or not.There are two types of people in this world.1. Those that can extrapolate from incomplete information.
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