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8-inch condenser compared to 18-inch condenser
Hi guys! This is my first post here (except the intro), so bare with me, pls. I am planning to buy a CM still from Oakstills where you can add column pipe elements, dephlegmator, shotgun condenser etc separately, that I can clamp together. I am planning an 8 gallon pot which I can use both for pot still strip runs as well as for reflux action. So I will be stilling both low wines and high alcohol spirits. The column dimension will be 2″ and the heater element can handle up to 3kw. I am looking at a combo that comes with a pot, a 6″ spool pipe and elbow, and an 8″ long shotgun dispenser. I am looking at adding column pipes to this set up so that the total height can be 32″ when clamped together. My worry is if the 8″ shotgun product condenser will be to weak to cool all the alcohol vapors or not. Oakstills also has an 18″ shotgun product condenser, which of course is more expensive and I am worried it’s overkill (besides being expensive). The question is if the length of the product condenser is more connected to how cold water I can put through it? I have abundance of cold water to run through the condenser, and no issues when it comes to water pressure either. Given this, am I overly concerned about the length of the condenser, or is there a relationship between the length of the product condenser and what/how I am distilling that I need to consider?.
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29 Replies
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is this a copper or stainless condenser?
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The 8″ dephlegmator should be just fine, but I cannot vouch for its actual performance. They also have another 8″ dephlegmator with copper internal tubes which are 25 times more thermally conductive. Those who build their own condensers make them (the inner tubes) out of copper for this reason. I read some of the comments on the Oak Stills product page and there was a complaint that the stainless tube they used is quite thick and relatively low thermal conductivity. There’s probably plenty of people here who have used that dephlegmator or one that’s similar and can say how well it works.A 2″ packed column should be 40″ tall. The standard is that the column height be 20 times the diameter. With a 2″ column you’ll probably get somewhere around 1.5 LPH product take-off during hearts. A 3″ column would get around 3 LPH take-off rate. A 4″ column would get around 6 LPH. Are you absolutely sure you WANT a CM (Cooling Management) still? Have you looked into how VM (Vapor Management), CCVM (Condenser Controlled Vapor Management), LM (Liquid Management) stills work and how they operate in comparison to CM stills?4″ VM Build
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Stainless Steel.
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Are you asking if the 8″ will be ok as a dephlegmator, or as a product condenser? Salt Must Flow has answered as if you were asking about its efficacy as a reflux condenser. My interpretation of your words, is that you are asking in relation to product condenser, in which case i would go for the longer one.
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I was probably too unspecific. I am not talking about a dephlegmator here, but the actual vapor condenser bring the alcohol back to liquid after leaving the reflux column. But you comment is interesting as I was planning to also buy the SS dephlegmator. I will do some research to you feedback. But my original question was about the product condenser.This is great feeeback. Thanks! I wasn’t aware of the height/diameter ratio. Not sure what LPH is though.I have been debating this. When I was distilling back in the 90’ies I had a CM still and I know how to operate it. VM and LM stills were just getting popular then, but the common stills were CMs. As of now, I think I’d prefer to start with something that I am familiar with.
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Yes, my question is about the product condenser. I was too vague in my OP and I will update it to make it clearer.So you think the 8″ product condenser will be too weak?
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I was probably too unspecific. I am not talking about a dephlegmator here, but the actual vapor condenser bring the alcohol back to liquid after leaving the reflux column. But you comment is interesting as I was planning to also buy the SS dephlegmator. I will do some research to you feedback. But my original question was about the product condenser.This is great feeeback. Thanks! I wasn’t aware of the height/diameter ratio. Not sure what LPH is though.I have been debating this. When I was distilling back in the 90’ies I had a CM still and I know how to operate it. VM and LM stills were just getting popular then, but the common stills were CMs. As of now, I think I’d prefer to start with something that I am familiar with.LPH is Liters Per Hour.Those 8″ condensers are specifically called a ‘Dephlegmator’. They’re even called dephlegmator in their product page. Those are NOT product condensers (AKA Shotgun Condensers). Dephlegmators are partial condensers used to operate CM (cooling management) stills to adjust reflux ratio & take-off rate.Apparently what you’re asking about is Oak Still’s Shotgun Condensers which are product condensers. Longer the better (more surface area) for full power stripping runs. Copper inner tubes are better for maximum efficiency. The more inner tubes the better because that also increases surface area.4″ VM Build
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I see now what you mean. Oakstills have a Still combo of a boiling pot, a 12” column, elbow and an 8” product condenser, but now that I look at it I realize that what they are selling as the product condenser in the combo is indeed the 8” dephlegmator, as you are pointing out. I’m with you now.Ok, so the 18” product condenser, preferably in copper, is the best choice. Many thanks!
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I see now what you mean. Oakstills have a Still combo of a boiling pot, a 12” column, elbow and an 8” product condenser, but now that I look at it I realize that what they are selling as the product condenser in the combo is indeed the 8” dephlegmator, as you are pointing out. I’m with you now.Ok, so the 18” product condenser, preferably in copper, is the best choice. Many thanks!Is this the still combo you’re referring to? If so, I see what you mean. Yeah they’re selling a 8″ dephlegmator with it and are calling it a “200mm condenser”. That’s really really short for a product condenser.This is exactly why people build their own. The stuff that’s for sale online is intended to hook buyers, not for operational performance.4″ VM Build
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If by combo still you mean you are looking at something like this there are a,couple of things you should know.https://oakstills.com/en-au/products/30 … eq=uniformIf you want to run it as a reflux still you will need to buy a needle valve to accurately control water flow to the dephlegmator, a normal tap will not do the job well and I doubt a needle valve is supplied with the still.Secondly it’s not a great design as a reflux still.There is a good reason that folk build LM ,CM or CCVM reflux columns when they want to get into neutral making.
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Use the 8″ long shotgun for a dephlegmator and the 18″ for a product condenser.
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Mostly folks build with copper because it’s easier than SS.Copper might conduct heat 25 times better but in real life a copper condenser is only slightly more efficient than SS.
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My perspective is that other than cost, nobody regrets having surplus capacity, and it might theoretically open up future possibilities without additional expense later.
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A couple thoughts….8″ product condenser sounds difficult to manage. I like to feel along the condenser for the point where outside shell is cool to touch to where it starts getting warm. If that point starts to drift I will increase or decrease water flow rate accordingly.Second with respect to the two 2 inch shotgun condensers available from Oak…The copper unit has 4 tubes that are 8 mm ID [450mm x 8×3.14mm x 4 = 45,216 mm2 surface area]The stainless unit has 6 tubes that are 10 mm ID [450 x 10×3.14mm x 6 = 84,780 mm2 surface area]Pipe thickness not mentioned but I’m thinking the copper tubing is likely thicker else they would have put at least one more tube in there.I’ve got the Oak 3″ stainless condenser and am very happy with it.Edited to properly count surface area…2 Pi R…That 3″ shotgun has 150,720 mm2 surface area btw
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Yes, this is the combo I was referring to. Here my knowledge about dephlegmators are not strong enough, so help me understand why I need a valve? If I connect it to the my normal tap I can regulate the temperature of the water as well as the speed of the water circulation. Along with adjusting the power from the heat element, I should be able to find equilibrium where I am able to dial in the desired temperature at the top of the column where the vapors are led off to the product condenser? With my old still in the 1990’ies, the column cooler consisted of two water pipes running horizontally through the column, cooling the inside vapors with cold tap water, and with this rustic cooling I was able to set regulate the temp such I could fix the temp at the top of the column where the alcohol vapors are led off. I don’t see why I should struggle with it using the dephlegmator? I am missing something, obviously.
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Mostly folks build with copper because it’s easier than SS.Copper might conduct heat 25 times better but in real life a copper condenser is only slightly more efficient than SS.I am too green to get involved in the copper vs SS discussion. For me it will be a matter of what I can afford. I am planning to use one 18″ copper spool in my build and will use copper wire mesh column packing, that will be the extent of copper I will have in my first build. Right or wrong, I have read that it’s more important to have copper in the first part of the distilling process than in the latter part, this is what I will be going with.
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Because a dephlegmator needs very precise water flow control to work properly.By all means , use your normal tap if that is what you want to do.I doubt that you will be happy with the result though.
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Mostly folks build with copper because it’s easier than SS.Copper might conduct heat 25 times better but in real life a copper condenser is only slightly more efficient than SS.I am not competent in this area. The way I see it, with my eyes pierced at my wallet, I know that SS works. I’ve used it in the past and made good spirits with it. I also know that Copper removes sulphur components from the alcohol if it is present in the inside of the still, so I will use some copper to hopefully remove the sulphur. Whether the still is 100% efficient or not is not my concern at the moment, I just want to produce good moonshine.I’ll go with the 18″ condenser, thanks for your advise!
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I think this is good advise! Thanks!
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Thanks for sharing. This is a bit reassuring I am making a good choice.
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A cross tube depleg works but it’s so inefficient that folks had to run the cooling water wide open.Due to having more surface area an 8″ shotgun will require a needle valve to turn the flow down to a trickle before any vapor can sneak past it.
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Yes, you are right, most of the time the cooling was more or less full throttle, or there abouts. I understand your point about the dephlegmator having more surface area, so the coooler might just cold stop the entire distilling process, there’s a word for it, I know, but it’s back in my memory bank from the 90’ies and I would need a week to remember it. But I am thinking that with the temperature of the water I should be possible to avoid blocking the distillation, and by also being able to adjust the temp in the pot, I am guessing, right or wrong, that I have more options to fiddle with? But fair point, I have no experience from dephlegmators, maybe getting a valve for the cooling flow is a cheap insurance?
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Thanks for sharing. This is a bit reassuring I am making a good choice.Doh saw a math error…all those surface areas should be multiplied by Pi…Ratio doesn’t change but silly mistake
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PalCabral, if you look close that the pic in that still’s product page, it includes some tubing and one flow control valve.4″ VM Build
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PalCabral,So now we know you are looking at a short CM reflux column, all SS304, with an 8″ deflagmater and an 18* product condenser.Many stillers have a similar unit and are doing well with it. But this column length is only 24″ long, it would be good to buy an 18″ spool piece and add it to the column length. And the packing you use is also important. That is the user’s choice, another subject.Then the other consideration is what do you want to make, a good neutral product or a flavored whiskey. These packed columns are used more for a neutral product. And another consideration is to have a known, steady and controllable cooling water (cw) flow to the deflagmater. That is why a needle vale should be used, and also a pressure regulator to protect from pressure burps in the water supply. Also, it is good to have a measure of the cw flow rate, a flowmeter, so you know and can set the cw flow to a desired value. Or do not do this and take a few blips in the run operation that may or may not be troublesome. Blips are when the cw flow fluctuates, then the product flow changes and the reflux flow changes and the product abv changes. And, do not forget to insulate your pot and column, to insure good results.The following is what to expect from your runs on the 24″ unit making a high abv product. I will show you results using my updated packed column characteristics calculator. Expect about 92% abv product, adding the 18″ spool could get you to 95% abv, close to neutral. Say you do a strip run and get low wines and dilute them to 6 gal at 25% abv. That is the pot charge. Say you have copper scubbies packing the 24″ of spools. The cw flows into the bottom of the deflagmater and out the top and then to a reservoir or dump. Same for the PC condenser. The max watts you should use during the run is 2000 watts, much above that will give entrainment ( lower abv ) and maybe flooding. You can use 3000 watts for heat up to just before boiling. A good product flow rate for this 2″ is 1.2 L/hr. Many stillers will tell you this. So those are the recommended run conditions for a good 2″ packed column run. Here are the results you should get. Try to follow these charts. They give you a lot of information. Input Data
Deflagmater Results and Run Time Values
So these results say that your 8″ deflagmater is very adequate for the job. Only about 525 ml/min cw flow is needed to condense the reflux. But it has to be a steady cw flow. Run time to the tails is about 5 hours, yes expect that long a time because of the low 1.2 L/hr product flow rate. Faster rates will lower the product abv.Also, when you read more about running this column, you will see that it is good to run initially at total reflux ( no product out ) for 10 or 20 minutes so the column can equilibrate. For 2000 watts pot power, the cw flow for total reflux is about 800 ml/min. So, again the 8″ deflag is adequate.Hope you can take this all in, it is a guideline that you can refer to later when you start running the reflux column. Haggy
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Great. I must admit I wasn’t paying attention to this picture.
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Many thanks, Haggy. Yes, lots to take in. My original post was about whether about an 8″ product condenser would be strong enough or if I should go with the 18″ product condenser. I have received a lot of great feedback to confirm that my original concern was correct, I should go for an 18″ product condenser. All good.I am not looking at a 24″ column still, no need to worry. This is why I like the concept of the Oakstills stills, they are so configurable. My plan is to have a still where I can add/remove column sections, spools, to adjust the length of the column depending on what spirits I am intending to make. For a spirit run I will be using a 12″ or 18″ length column. For spirit runs with the aim to get +90%abv I am planning to use a 35-38″ length column, or higher even. This is why I was asking about the length of the condenser. I need one that handles a variety of scenarios.However, the pages you pasted in are very interesting. They were very explaining. Could you share the location, the link to these? Or are they part of a software, if so, which one? Especially the information about the dephlegmator is really helpful, never used one like this before.
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There is an entire page of various calculators on the home site. (Click the picture of the still at top left of this page, under the heading on that page you will see some links)
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I didn’t know that.
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